EverDrive Forum

General => EverDrive N8 => Topic started by: Great Hierophant on July 13, 2015, 04:49 PM

Title: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Great Hierophant on July 13, 2015, 04:49 PM
As some of you know, kevtris has finalized his HDMI mod board, called the HiDefNES, for the NES and Famicom and has released it to manufacturing.  Unfortunately, it won't work with the Everdrive unless serious work is done at the FPGA programming end.  Please read this post here for more information :

http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12019&view=unread#p150882
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Hanafuda on July 13, 2015, 04:59 PM
I'm not savvy on the tech stuff, but am I reading that right that his HDMI setup forces the Famicom/NES to run out of spec, but then he's blaming the Everdrive for causing the incompatibility?

Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: RetroRGB on July 13, 2015, 11:11 PM
Krikzz, would you mind commenting on this?  I'm really interested to hear your opinion.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: DBloke on July 14, 2015, 02:30 AM
1080p on a NES?

Thats a lot of streached distorted pixels
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: sammargh on July 14, 2015, 04:23 AM
I'm not savvy on the tech stuff, but am I reading that right that his HDMI setup forces the Famicom/NES to run out of spec, but then he's blaming the Everdrive for causing the incompatibility?

Based off the nesdev post the everdrive n8 is using M2 - cpu pin 31 to check when the cpu is ready for bus data. This is not very friendly with the modified timing of the HDMI modification as well as a few CPU/PPU revisions which causes issues with mappers. Sometimes M2 claims it is ready when it isn't causing false reads and corrupted memory.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Hanafuda on July 14, 2015, 08:43 AM
I'm not savvy on the tech stuff, but am I reading that right that his HDMI setup forces the Famicom/NES to run out of spec, but then he's blaming the Everdrive for causing the incompatibility?

Based off the nesdev post the everdrive n8 is using M2 - cpu pin 31 to check when the cpu is ready for bus data. This is not very friendly with the modified timing of the HDMI modification as well as a few CPU/PPU revisions which causes issues with mappers. Sometimes M2 claims it is ready when it isn't causing false reads and corrupted memory.

OK, but does the EDN8 have any compatibility issues with the NESRGB mod? I've only got one AV Fami and it's in super condition so I'm not modding it. But I might snag another less pampered one to futz with sometime, so I've been thinking about going ahead and buying the NESRGB kit for future use. But I've been watching the kevtris HDMI situation because it really looks like a superior solution vs. using the RGB board with an upscaler (i.e. Framemeister).
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Kyle on July 14, 2015, 04:33 PM
N8 is fine with the RGB mod.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: sammargh on July 15, 2015, 07:12 PM
I'm not savvy on the tech stuff, but am I reading that right that his HDMI setup forces the Famicom/NES to run out of spec, but then he's blaming the Everdrive for causing the incompatibility?

Based off the nesdev post the everdrive n8 is using M2 - cpu pin 31 to check when the cpu is ready for bus data. This is not very friendly with the modified timing of the HDMI modification as well as a few CPU/PPU revisions which causes issues with mappers. Sometimes M2 claims it is ready when it isn't causing false reads and corrupted memory.

OK, but does the EDN8 have any compatibility issues with the NESRGB mod? I've only got one AV Fami and it's in super condition so I'm not modding it. But I might snag another less pampered one to futz with sometime, so I've been thinking about going ahead and buying the NESRGB kit for future use. But I've been watching the kevtris HDMI situation because it really looks like a superior solution vs. using the RGB board with an upscaler (i.e. Framemeister).

If the N8 works on your NES/Famicom before adding in a NESRGB it will be fine. The problem is that some cpu revisions have M2 lines that send out invalid high/low levels and cause the memory loading to get corrupted. The problem with the HDMI mod is that it clocks entirely differently and just enough to screw up the N8. I use a Famicom N8 just fine in my NESRGB AV Famicom through a Framemeister. Honestly I like it more than the HDMI solution because it has extremely good display zooming which lets you scan the tiles on the border out and not see the random garbage on some games.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: nuu on July 16, 2015, 01:37 AM
Even if you don't consider the HDMI mod, improving the mappers to solve compatibility problems with those certain CPU revisions would be a good idea.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Great Hierophant on July 16, 2015, 03:31 AM
Honestly I like it more than the HDMI solution because it has extremely good display zooming which lets you scan the tiles on the border out and not see the random garbage on some games.

The HiDefNES mod supported cropping early : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNBVzGaworw

kevtris said it could be fixed and the Everdrive's main competition works with the HiDefNES mod. 
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: SnoopKatt on July 20, 2015, 12:54 AM
N8 is fine with the RGB mod.
It's good for CRT TV's that support it, but eventually RGB/S-video won't be a good option once our CRT's die unless you buy an expensive upscaler (the cheap ones are awful!).

krikzz, kind of a weird question to ask here, but will there be a new N8 revision that would work around this? I know bunnyboy's project is approaching the manufacturing stage, but I'd love to have a stock system and still use an N8.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Great Hierophant on July 20, 2015, 06:25 AM
A new revision may not be necessary according to kevtris, but only Krikzz can determine that for sure. 

The HiDefNES mod will be the way to go for many people, either integrated into the Analogue Nt or in a modded system.  There are people who don't want to spend the $300 or so on a Framemeister but will spend half that to get their NES modded.  There is a good opportunity here.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Fallen Kell on July 21, 2015, 12:53 AM
I would hope Kevtris might give a little more information on the problems. I believe the bulk of it is due to where the clock sync is occurring between the Everdrive and the NES hardware resulting in issues with certain CPU/PPU combinations with the Everdrive and issues across the board when the NES's clock rate is changed (either with an overclock or underclock). I would hope this is a fairly simple change to fix as it isn't like you would want to have multiple sections of code sync'ing the clock (even if writing the code in assembler...)
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Fallen Kell on August 23, 2015, 06:30 AM
Just bumping this now that the boards are starting to get installed on the first test systems. Any idea on if this will get resolved?
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: moobs on August 23, 2015, 07:23 PM
I'd love feedback on this also

I want to modify my AV famicom and the fact this doesn't support the everdrive yet is the reason I'm holding out on buying one

I'd love some information krikzz I'm sure you'll have a lot of users who will be doing this
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: DBloke on August 23, 2015, 08:16 PM
I'd love feedback on this also

I want to modify my AV famicom and the fact this doesn't support the everdrive yet is the reason I'm holding out on buying one

I'd love some information krikzz I'm sure you'll have a lot of users who will be doing this
Get the Famicom one?
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: moobs on August 26, 2015, 12:47 PM
Get the Famicom one?

literally the HD board doesn't support the everdrive and the creator of the board has stated itsd nothing to do with the mod it's to do with the Everdrive
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: owlnonymous on August 27, 2015, 09:59 PM
I really hope the N8 gets a firmware update, or even a new revision to support the Hi-Def HDMI mod. I think a lot of business will be lost if not.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: goombakid on August 28, 2015, 04:49 AM
Kevtris should just send a board to KRIKzz so he can personally test it.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Ryoandr on August 28, 2015, 07:23 PM
So, latest news are that firmware 3 works with hidefnes. Firmware 4 and onward doesn't. I hope a solution is found soon enough.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Great Hierophant on August 29, 2015, 05:18 PM
Can anyone post a link to firmware 3?  I can't seem to find any download of firmware before 10.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Great Hierophant on August 30, 2015, 04:08 AM
You can find the firmware linked to this message :

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=176770001&postcount=287
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Draven on September 03, 2015, 04:31 AM
It doesn't work for me unfortunately. I formatted my SD card and then put the 3.0 OS on it (I downloaded it from the Analogue dropbox account), but I get the exact same screen that Kevtris was showing in his video. I hit reset a dozen times, tried to turn the power on and off a few times... nothing.

Maybe it has to do with the version of the Everdrive itself? I bought this one last summer. It works fine in a normal toploader.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Fallen Kell on September 11, 2015, 11:50 PM
I will confirm that my Everdrive N8 does not work with firmware 3.0 on the Analogue NT/Kevtris HDMI board. It is possible that I am trying to do things that were not supported on that older firmware. I will try a few more things (such as just a couple games and not my full library).
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: point.vector on September 12, 2015, 10:21 AM
After completely removing and formatting a new sd card, and loading firmware 3.0, I was able to get it to finally boot. I also dl'd from the Analogue dropbox. However, it does have its downs. It can randomly crash (seemingly whenever it feels like it), and is without most of the newer features.
Oh, one thing I did have to do, was load the N8 in a normal NES until it booted, then I removed it and it booted in the Analogue. It wouldn't boot before I did this. It seems most of the library works, but like I said, it randomly crashes, which isn't going to do much for you, since savestates are not on firmware 3.0.

I also hope something can be done.

-Point
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Fallen Kell on September 12, 2015, 07:07 PM
I will try getting it to work in a regular NES first then.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Fallen Kell on September 14, 2015, 11:38 PM
After getting the Everdrive N8 working on a normal NES, it works in the Analogue NT with the version 3 mappers.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: point.vector on September 16, 2015, 09:20 AM
I just purchased a couple more, and if I may....I will lend mine to Krikzz for testing if needed. I have already opened it up, so warranty is gone.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: SillyWalks on September 22, 2015, 08:05 PM
GameTechUS asked Krikzz to take a look at the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcy20xhy4H0
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: KRIKzz on September 24, 2015, 12:13 AM
I got HDMI NES mod recently, i going to look on this problem
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: RetroDanâ„¢ on September 24, 2015, 02:24 AM
Excellent, Krikzz.  I look forward to a real, solid answer on the HiDefNES/Everdrive N8 issue.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: leonquest on September 25, 2015, 01:13 AM
Where are you guys getting the HDMI mod kit? I've been trying to find the place to buy them, but no luck  :(
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: justindarc on September 25, 2015, 04:02 AM
Where are you guys getting the HDMI mod kit? I've been trying to find the place to buy them, but no luck  :(

GameTech.us sold a number of pre-modded top-loader NES and AV Famicoms recently. I believe the auctions were going to be used to fund the production of the next batch of boards.

Also, really glad to hear krikzz got one. I can't wait to use my Everdrive in HD!! \o/
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Fallen Kell on September 25, 2015, 08:55 AM
Where are you guys getting the HDMI mod kit? I've been trying to find the place to buy them, but no luck  :(

GameTech.us sold a number of pre-modded top-loader NES and AV Famicoms recently. I believe the auctions were going to be used to fund the production of the next batch of boards.

Also, really glad to hear krikzz got one. I can't wait to use my Everdrive in HD!! \o/

You can do it right now, just need to use version 3. Obviously there are features that are missing and it is old versions of the mappers (some of which have been replaced for better support), but it works for a decent number of games. And if you watch GametechUS's last video on the Everdrive N8, he found that 2 of the mapper files in particular seem to be part of the issue.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: KRIKzz on September 26, 2015, 08:33 PM
Seems like problem in reset detection. N8 check if M2 signal freeze, after that cart lock itself and waiting till cpu will read reset vector. While cart locked, all write operation denied. With hdmi mod cart stay locked forever, by some reasons fpga does not detect reset vector reading. Should not be hard to fix and make some other way to unlock cart, but still wonder why it happens at all. Or may be cart in permanent reset state, i not sure at the moment. May be HDMI board doing something with M2, if phase of M2 longer than 400ns, carts will detect reset
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: moobs on September 27, 2015, 01:38 AM
Should not be hard to fix and make some other way to unlock cartt

looking forward to the updates Krikzz :)
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: mikejmoffitt on September 27, 2015, 01:45 AM
There's always the old-school reset RC-circuit-with-comparator. Better than nothing as a hotfix.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: Great Hierophant on September 27, 2015, 05:38 AM
Seems like problem in reset detection. N8 check if M2 signal freeze, after that cart lock itself and waiting till cpu will read reset vector. While cart locked, all write operation denied. With hdmi mod cart stay locked forever, by some reasons fpga does not detect reset vector reading. Should not be hard to fix and make some other way to unlock cart, but still wonder why it happens at all. Or may be cart in permanent reset state, i not sure at the moment. May be HDMI board doing something with M2, if phase of M2 longer than 400ns, carts will detect reset

It appears that both the EverDrive and the Hi Def NES are using the M2 signal for cross purposes.  Here is what kevtris has to say about it on the NesDev forum:

Quote from: kevtris
yeah, I think it has to do with how I am detecting PAL/NTSC. I let the CPU run a little while and check M2. Then I reset it again. Traced through CV3's startup on the NES while it booted and I can see why it crashes.

It's setting some things up, then CLI'ing and immediately jumping into the IRQ routine. But the problem is the IRQ routine's pointer has not been set up yet so the CPU jumps off in the weeds.

Using a game genie fixes it because the MMC5 isn't enabled on this first exploratory reset. Only when you start the game does it enable the MMC5, so it works fine.

The fix will be to detect PAL/NTSC via the PPU instead, since that continues to run even in reset. (the CPU does not output anything in reset, which is why it must be taken out of reset to detect PAL vs. NTSC).

and :

Quote from: kevtris
Been working at the problem games on the adapter.

I have received a bunch of carts from people (thanks!) and here's what I figured out:
. . .

Bandit Kings of Ancient China - works OK on nt and normal NES

Castlevania 3 - I can get this to work by holding reset low for awhile on powerup, so I think I can get this working. I played through the first level no problem once it started. I tested this through a game genie and reproduced it working there as well.

Legend of link - (homebrew/hack/etc) This exhibits similar problems to CV3, where it worked through a game genie and with holding reset low. Turns out it's MMC5 as well so that explains part of it. Once the game starts, it seems OK until you're actually in the game, then the graphics are kinda hosed up and it may crash. Still investigating why this is.

Nothing else yet on the everdrive issue, I don't know any more yet on how redoing the mappers is going.

So I think I am getting close to a fix on this by stretching out reset a little more.
Title: Re: HDMI HidefNES Board Incompatibility
Post by: KRIKzz on September 27, 2015, 05:31 PM
Seems like it fixed now.
http://krikzz.com/forum/index.php?topic=3458.0