EverDrive Forum

General => FXPAK (SD2SNES) => Topic started by: Jagasian on August 08, 2018, 05:41 AM

Title: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Jagasian on August 08, 2018, 05:41 AM
Somebody please say “yes, it is impossible”, so that Redguy can prove you wrong  ;D
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Gumball on August 08, 2018, 12:11 PM
Yes it is impossible. It will never happen not without a serious hardware revision. The FPGA in the SD2SNES would have to be powerful enough to emulate the entirety of the original gameboy. The Super Gameboy essentially just has the guts of a gameboy in it to put it bluntly. So there is literally no way anyone not even redguy with his awesome programming skills could make it work. I'd suggest getting a super gameboy or super gameboy 2 with the GB everdrive.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: OneBagTravel on August 08, 2018, 04:12 PM
Yes it is impossible.
(https://i.imgur.com/ihkHpzA.jpg)
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Jagasian on August 08, 2018, 06:09 PM
Have all of the steps been completed to summon Redguy?
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Gumball on August 09, 2018, 02:33 AM
Yes it is impossible.
(https://i.imgur.com/ihkHpzA.jpg)
Look if the FPGA in the sd2snes has enough power to emulate the gameboy then in turn the super gameboy then by all means Id love to see it happen as that would be pretty god damn amazing. At any rate I sincerely do not believe it's possible however if anyone wan'ts to try it be all means go nuts! If someone proves me wrong then awesome all that means is the sd2snes becomes even more legendary.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: FeverDrive on August 09, 2018, 07:15 AM
I think it's possible with the SD2SNES doing the heavy lifting  ::)
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Missingno255 on August 09, 2018, 08:35 AM
Oh Jebus.....

Just get Super Gameboy 2!

Lock please.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: goombakid on August 09, 2018, 10:36 AM
Just get Super Gameboy 2!
But that would just make me swap carts out and I don't want to do that. Soft reset to main menu with my 8bitdo controller and going from playing Super Mario RPG to Super Mario Land from the comfort of my couch? Yes plz!

/sarcasm

Lock please.
Until it gets really out of hand, we'll let this roll.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: dreimer on August 09, 2018, 11:53 AM
Lucky you added "/sarcasm" to your last post. ^^ Otherwise I would have torn apart the whole text and the postin' guy, too.
Counter question: Can mankind be happy with what they get? At least ONCE in the time of the existence of homo sapiens?! You got GSU and noone believed it would ever happen. That not even fully done you continued demanding SA-1 and even that you got. SA-1 is not even stable yet and you go on to demand the useless stuff, now that useful stuff is all in the works! Whats next?! Quake 4 on SNES?? (If anyone dares to say yes here...) Please just lock down this useless thread and force the ppl lurking in here demanding bullcrap to do something productive themselves. Thank you ^^

It was a really good idea of RedGuy to keep the SA-1 Beta and even his hidden repo away from all you guys. Ppl were forced to do some work on their own to find the code and that filtered 99,9% of the guys in here and on Discord. We had four weeks of pure silence for testing and no stampede of guys having no clue of the work needed to get things running. No "add MSU pr0n support to SA-1 else it's useless"-idiots, no "SMRPG does not work on my China crap clone, fix that!" and no "my microwave just ate my nose thx to RedGuy's new bitfile!" Sadly enough all good things have an end as it seems... unless the mods close this perfect example of humans not having any swarm intelligence at all.  8)
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Relikk on August 09, 2018, 02:02 PM
I'll never understand people who moan about others that request features to be added. It's like the whole Classic WoW versus retail WoW. The retailers have their game, why are they so against other people asking for alternatives.

You have your SD2SNES and you'll get your SA-1 when Redguy is done. What does it matter if other people ask for options or additions? It's up to the developers or the coders to do it, or not. In other words, it's not your problem.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Greg2600 on August 09, 2018, 08:22 PM
This question would have to be more for Ikari_01 than anyone, as we're not talking about creating another core.  You'd have to emulate the Gameboy.  It's probably doable, but why?
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Jdurg on August 09, 2018, 08:56 PM
Why? Gameboy games run at the incorrect clockspeed and sound weird. No need to add extra stress on the developers.

Incorrect clock speed compared to what?  If you are thinking of the issues with the Super Gameboy 1, your argument is akin to saying "Why try and get Gameboy games to run?  The surface of the sun is very warm!"  Makes no sense.  heh.

In addition, if there is a need to shut down any and all discourse on SD2SNES and any new posts, they will certainly close these forums.  If you want to be a mod, kindly ask the site mods if you can be granted that privilege.

Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Jagasian on August 10, 2018, 11:28 PM
This question would have to be more for Ikari_01 than anyone, as we're not talking about creating another core.  You'd have to emulate the Gameboy.  It's probably doable, but why?

Why emulate 25 year old tech?  Preservation.  There are only so many SUper Gameboys out there.  If SD2SNES emulated it, then it will have a longer shelf life as SD2SNES hard is still being manufactured.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: mrpopsicleman on August 11, 2018, 08:18 AM
When asked if NES would be possible on the SD2SNES, this was ikari_01's counter on Discord.

Quote from: ikari_01
well uh
yes and no
it might be possible to get something working but there's no straightforward way to get the picture into the SNES at sufficient speed
I can feed audio directly, but not video
now PPU2 has a secret mode where you can feed it 15 bit digital video
but of course it would be impractical to cut up the snes
lol

OTOH Super Gameboy might not be too far out of reach
as it already works in "real life" through the cartridge bus.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: FeverDrive on August 13, 2018, 06:44 AM
Quote from: ikari_01
OTOH Super Gameboy might not be too far out of reach
as it already works in "real life" through the cartridge bus.
There is hope  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: bluefoxicy on November 05, 2019, 02:39 PM
Quote from: ikari_01
OTOH Super Gameboy might not be too far out of reach
as it already works in "real life" through the cartridge bus.
There is hope  ::) ::)

Considering the DSP-1 is a 10MHz 65c816 (yes, it's more powerful than the SNES main core itself) and the Gameboy Color is an 8.38MHz Z80, it's logically doable.  Mind you, the SD2SNES Pro is a Cyclone IV now; it's actually powerful enough to implement a hardware SNES.

Best approach would be to load the sprites destined for the Gameboy Color PPU into the SNES PPU, essentially hardware virtualizing the PPU rather than reimplementing and shuffling video.  You can do the same with the NES and Genesis if you really have that kind of programmer time; Gameboy Advance displays too many colors.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: the_randomizer on November 11, 2019, 08:44 PM
Why not the Super Game Boy 2? It's much better and actually has the proper timing, audio doesn't sound weird.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: nuu on November 12, 2019, 01:15 AM
I think the Super Game Boy is discussed in a general sense. If the SGB can be done, there is not much left to do for it to become an SGB2. Mainly the link port.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Galron on November 15, 2019, 02:41 AM
Also the whole timing issue can be fixed on a gbav1.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: nuu on November 15, 2019, 05:53 PM
Yes by adding a clock crystal that matches the Game Boy's. A link port can also be added.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: D2DEZEL on December 21, 2019, 01:53 AM
http://helmet.kafuka.org/bboard/thread.php?id=178
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Gumball on December 22, 2019, 04:19 AM
http://helmet.kafuka.org/bboard/thread.php?id=178
I checked the link. What exactly does this mean? I only saw stuff related to BSNES. Does super gameboy work on the sd2snes now? or what.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Relikk on December 22, 2019, 02:26 PM
http://helmet.kafuka.org/bboard/thread.php?id=178
I checked the link. What exactly does this mean? I only saw stuff related to BSNES. Does super gameboy work on the sd2snes now? or what.

MSU1 type capability for Game Boy games.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: bluefoxicy on January 18, 2020, 04:46 PM
Yes by adding a clock crystal that matches the Game Boy's. A link port can also be added.

Cyclone IV handbook (https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/programmable/us/en/pdfs/literature/hb/cyclone-iv/cyclone4-handbook.pdf) says the EP4CE15E17C8N has 15,048 LEs, 594 Kbit embedded memory, 66 18x18 embedded multipliers, 4 general-purpose PLLs, 20 global clock networks, 8 user I/O banks, and 343 maximum user I/Os in the EP4CE15 series but 256 pins on this version.  As a 1.2V version (not low-power), it has a top clock speed of 166MHz; timing issues will apply, but the Gameboy is 4.194304MHz, and the GBC 8.388608MHz (twice GB).

The FPGA allows M, N, and C counters from 1 to 512.  The PLL multiplies the clock by M/(N*post-scale counter).  I see an A510N, which is a 32.768MHz oscillator.  For GBC, you'd need to multiply by 1/0.256, or 1000/256, so use 125/32.  For Gameboy, use 125/64.  Divide these by 2 for the PPU clock and 4 for the CPU clock (if you need PLLs, just produce the PPU clock in the first place, and divide it by 2 for the CPU clock).  Gameboy Advance clock is twice the GBC clock, but it uses a superscalar ARM processor and implementing that is difficult (and might cause timing issues, requiring slower clock speeds, although the FPGA can probably handle it), plus the FPGA may not have enough LEs.

SD2SNES also has a USB port, so you just need a USB-to-link-cable.

SD2SNES is open-source, so maybe start a kickstarter to pay someone to implement all this stuff.  Should work on SD2SNES Pro but it's going to be as much of a lift as creating an FPGA Gameboy Color.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: D2DEZEL on January 20, 2020, 12:34 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_cTEDkTzMo
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Erockbrox on January 26, 2020, 04:39 AM
I would love to see the SD2SNES Pro be able to have "cores" like the Mister project where you can play Atari 2600, NES, Genesis and such all with just the SD2SNES Pro.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: nuu on January 28, 2020, 03:25 PM
You mean something like the Super Game Boy but for other systems? It can't probably be more powerful than a Game Boy though, the SNES needs to be able to handle outputting the video.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Galron on January 29, 2020, 07:54 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar9WRwCiSr0
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: ikari_01 on January 30, 2020, 05:50 PM
That is very easy to do on NES (within its palette/resolution capabilities of course) but impossible on SNES.
On NES the graphics chip is connected directly to the cartridge slot, on SNES everything has to be copied from cartridge to the graphics chip using the CPU / DMA.
To make matters worse you can only transfer to the graphics chip when it's not drawing anything on screen, so it's just waiting 85% of the time (on NTSC).

Regarding cores, actually it's already loading individual cores for their respective special chip support ;) Note that the FXPAK Pro FPGA is only around 10% the size of MiSTer so it wouldn't get you very far anyway ;)
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Richardragon87 on January 30, 2020, 06:15 PM
That is very easy to do on NES (within its palette/resolution capabilities of course) but impossible on SNES.
On NES the graphics chip is connected directly to the cartridge slot, on SNES everything has to be copied from cartridge to the graphics chip using the CPU / DMA.
To make matters worse you can only transfer to the graphics chip when it's not drawing anything on screen, so it's just waiting 85% of the time (on NTSC).

Well if anything made by Anthrox (Which I must add were made Wayyyy back in 1996) was proof enough it goes without saying NES games could have worked on a SNES... just look up the game "BurgerTime (A&S NES Hack)" for example and try it. Am not sure if it exists on later packs but as I run an older one it clearly exists in the Hacks folder of the Super Famicom/Super Nintendo pack dated back in the 2010's but it should exist in later sets too.

There was also games like Star Soldier and a few others too if I recall
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: nuu on January 31, 2020, 01:49 AM
What ikari_01 is saying is that the NES can pull off some cheap tricks thanks to its pecular design, which most other systems using video RAM can't. The NES has video ROM/RAM on cartridge (like Neo Geo), while the SNES only has video RAM inside the console, and that means you can't just change it like you can with hardware on the cartridge.

Porting NES games to SNES isn't a big deal. The CPU is backwards compatible and the SNES is similar enough to the NES and much more powerful that most things can probably be ported over easilly, especially simple games like Donkey Kong and Burger Time.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Richardragon87 on January 31, 2020, 02:59 AM
What ikari_01 is saying is that the NES can pull off some cheap tricks thanks to its pecular design, which most other systems using video RAM can't. The NES has video ROM/RAM on cartridge (like Neo Geo), while the SNES only has video RAM inside the console, and that means you can't just change it like you can with hardware on the cartridge.

Porting NES games to SNES isn't a big deal. The CPU is backwards compatible and the SNES is similar enough to the NES and much more powerful that most things can probably be ported over easilly, especially simple games like Donkey Kong and Burger Time.

Indeed though some have graphical glitches its still quite ground breaking especially if you take into account on the year it was made. It's always fun to go back to those good old days when Trainers were made before rom patches exist these days xD
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Galron on February 01, 2020, 01:13 AM
Those game ports are interesting, but the ones I messed around with seemed to lack any sound/music.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Richardragon87 on February 01, 2020, 01:53 AM
Those game ports are interesting, but the ones I messed around with seemed to lack any sound/music.

A lot do, infact its a miracle if Burger Time wont freeze just after playing it yet the generic music will loop. It likely worked better on an emulator as a lot of Trainers have issues working on a real hardware SNES... speaking of abnormality did the SD2 SNES ever rectify the issue where Actraiser 2 on either the USA/PAL version kept crashing after selecting a world while the Japan one worked fine?
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: mrpopsicleman on June 22, 2020, 02:39 PM
Yes it is impossible. It will never happen not without a serious hardware revision. The FPGA in the SD2SNES would have to be powerful enough to emulate the entirety of the original gameboy. The Super Gameboy essentially just has the guts of a gameboy in it to put it bluntly. So there is literally no way anyone not even redguy with his awesome programming skills could make it work. I'd suggest getting a super gameboy or super gameboy 2 with the GB everdrive.

Well, it's here, and it works on both the original and Pro hardware.

https://t.co/xda5seilW1?amp=1
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: loofadawg on June 22, 2020, 04:31 PM
https://www.retrorgb.com/sd2snes-gets-super-game-boy-support.html
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: FeverDrive on June 23, 2020, 03:15 AM
 :o :o :o :o
Awesome work.
Who could be the anonymous coder? :P
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: HansHintersee20 on July 01, 2020, 01:14 AM
<3 <3 <3

WOW - just WOW!
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: symbios24 on August 06, 2020, 12:26 PM
Is it possible to add inside the Super Gameboy Bios rom a gameboy rom/game??
So when you run the bios it will load the rom/game??
For people that have the super everdrive like me and can't afford to buy Sd2Snes ??
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: nuu on August 06, 2020, 12:46 PM
No not possible. A GB rom can't run on a SNES (otherwise it would be a SNES game and not a GB game). It needs the Game Boy hardware to run.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: iray1979 on August 06, 2020, 04:43 PM
No not possible. A GB rom can't run on a SNES (otherwise it would be a SNES game and not a GB game). It needs the Game Boy hardware to run.

This is actually incorrect, the sd2snes can run GB and gbc enhanced games now.

I think the snes is capable of running nes games through the sd2snes as well actually, especially when you consider that the Sega Genesis can run nes games through the new Genesis Everdrive pro cart , I really dont think it is much of a stretch to get it done, just needs the right programmer/coder for the job.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Relikk on August 06, 2020, 06:02 PM
This is actually incorrect, the sd2snes can run GB and gbc enhanced games now.

Yes, the SD2SNES can, because it is emulating the Super Game Boy hardware, but that is not what the person he quoted was asking. He was asking if it can be done on a Super Everdrive.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Richardragon87 on August 06, 2020, 10:13 PM
No not possible. A GB rom can't run on a SNES (otherwise it would be a SNES game and not a GB game). It needs the Game Boy hardware to run.

This is actually incorrect, the sd2snes can run GB and gbc enhanced games now.

I think the snes is capable of running nes games through the sd2snes as well actually, especially when you consider that the Sega Genesis can run nes games through the new Genesis Everdrive pro cart , I really dont think it is much of a stretch to get it done, just needs the right programmer/coder for the job.

Hang on... the genesis could run NES roms? That's a first though I do remember the SNES managed to run NES roms in the A&S hacks back in the 90's so reverse processing is possible in some form...
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: zaphro72 on August 06, 2020, 11:05 PM
No not possible. A GB rom can't run on a SNES (otherwise it would be a SNES game and not a GB game). It needs the Game Boy hardware to run.

This is actually incorrect, the sd2snes can run GB and gbc enhanced games now.

I think the snes is capable of running nes games through the sd2snes as well actually, especially when you consider that the Sega Genesis can run nes games through the new Genesis Everdrive pro cart , I really dont think it is much of a stretch to get it done, just needs the right programmer/coder for the job.

Hang on... the genesis could run NES roms? That's a first though I do remember the SNES managed to run NES roms in the A&S hacks back in the 90's so reverse processing is possible in some form...

In the Mega ED Pro Krikzz included a FPGA to play NES roms on the Genesis. It is far from perfect, but it is a neat trick.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: Richardragon87 on August 07, 2020, 12:11 AM
No not possible. A GB rom can't run on a SNES (otherwise it would be a SNES game and not a GB game). It needs the Game Boy hardware to run.

This is actually incorrect, the sd2snes can run GB and gbc enhanced games now.

I think the snes is capable of running nes games through the sd2snes as well actually, especially when you consider that the Sega Genesis can run nes games through the new Genesis Everdrive pro cart , I really dont think it is much of a stretch to get it done, just needs the right programmer/coder for the job.

Hang on... the genesis could run NES roms? That's a first though I do remember the SNES managed to run NES roms in the A&S hacks back in the 90's so reverse processing is possible in some form...

In the Mega ED Pro Krikzz included a FPGA to play NES roms on the Genesis. It is far from perfect, but it is a neat trick.

That's pretty cool... as for us in the 90's we had quite a few NES games that managed to work on the SNES from Burger Time, Donkey Kong and Star Soldier to name a few. They were done around the time when Trainers were made which included a custom audio track to them and were also far from perfect and had graphical errors and values which I learnt to fix for SNES games to play on GBA.
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: nuu on August 07, 2020, 02:46 AM
as for us in the 90's we had quite a few NES games that managed to work on the SNES from Burger Time, Donkey Kong and Star Soldier
Those are ports of very simple games though. Nothing special.



As for running non-SNES software on a SNES. You can put a PS4 on top of a SNES and then run PS4 games on top of the SNES! It doesn't even have to be plugged into the SNES! It's magic!
Title: Re: Is it physically impossible to emulate the Super Gameboy on the SD2SNES?
Post by: nuu on August 11, 2020, 01:51 PM
Just to clarify what we are talking about:

If symbios24 asked if this can be done on a SNES Everdrive, my answer would be: I don't know, but I guess not since it sounds like its FPGA hardware is much less powerful than the one in the SD2SNES, which for a long time no one believed could fit a whole Super Gameboy.

But what I think symbios24 was asking is if there is some hacky way to do it on a SNES Everdrive, like injecting a GB rom in the SGB BIOS, and my answer is: It's not possible just using software. You still need the Gameboy hardware to run Gameboy software and the SNES doesn't have this hardware, it's inside the SGB cartridge.