Author Topic: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)  (Read 12157 times)

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Offline Aether Knight

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Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« on: February 08, 2015, 02:03 PM »
...Greetings all. I was playing Pilotwings recently via emulator (snes9x) and during the demo mode (where the game demos all the scenarios) I noticed something interesting...specifically the light plane demo. Each of the other scenarios shows a basic way of how to play and successfully land. However the light plane never seems to land properly and usually ends in a crash. So I figure it must just be snes9x not running the game 100%

So I fire up ZSNES and watch the same light plane demo and sure enough the plane crashes before it lands and immediately jumps to the title screen.

So then I'm thinking its an accuracy issue. No big deal. Its just the demo mode and most people won't see it since its usually last on the cycle of scenarios. So I've heard of higan/bsnes 64bit and its supposedly a close to perfection snes emulator. I load up Pilotwings (and the dsp1 rom) and select "for accuracy" and let the demos play and sure enough when it reaches the light plane demo, the plane prematurely crashes and jumps to the title screen...

I then load up the game on the higan/bsnes and the SD2SNES and have them run side by side. Not only does the SD2SNES demo of the plane land fine, the emulator seems to fall ever so behind in timing.

I'm not looking for a deep explanation for this and this is probably the wrong forum to post such a finding but I found it interesting nonetheless and thought I'd share that. Also it begs the question how many other games have these small quirks that cause the emulator to not be 100%...


Offline phoenixdownita

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2015, 02:14 AM »
You should describe the issue to byuu (higan) and he will fix it and in doing so find something new about cycle perfect emulation. He's really into this and if it's a bug he will fix it.

Offline Aether Knight

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2015, 10:43 AM »
You should describe the issue to byuu (higan) and he will fix it and in doing so find something new about cycle perfect emulation. He's really into this and if it's a bug he will fix it.

...Thats a good idea but I'm not sure byuu is actively working on higan or at least not bugs from what I gathered on his boards. In any case I'm more curious to know if this same behavior with the demo light planes is on the Super Everdrive, other various emulators or even the VC for the Wii/Wii U. It is possible this is already known by emu authors and there might not be a fix for it. If someone is registered at byuu's forums, by all means let him know...

Offline Missingno255

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2015, 10:09 PM »
Quote
In any case I'm more curious to know if this same behavior with the demo light planes is on the Super Everdrive
I can confirm that the Biplane does in fact crash and immediately jumps to the title screen on real hardware using Super Everdrive V2 with the actual DSP-1 chip installed.
Owned Everdrives: Everdrive MD, Mega Everdrive, Everdrive N8, Everdrive GB X5, Turbo Everdrive, Super Everdrive, Everdrive GBA

Misc Flashcarts: SD2SNES

Offline Aether Knight

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2015, 01:17 AM »
Quote
In any case I'm more curious to know if this same behavior with the demo light planes is on the Super Everdrive
I can confirm that the Biplane does in fact crash and immediately jumps to the title screen on real hardware using Super Everdrive V2 with the actual DSP-1 chip installed.

Well now that IS interesting. I would've guessed the Super Everdrive would handle it just like the SD2SNES (or the authentic game for that matter) Kudos to ikari for the pinpoint accuracy of his flash cartridge...well pinpoint for Pilotwings anyways. I suppose the next test would be to see if this same behavior happens on the VC.

Offline ikari_01

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2015, 08:14 AM »
The reason is DSP1 vs. DSP1B :) Pilotwings uses the old DSP1.
Some math table entries were wrong in the old DSP1 ROM which made them update it for the DSP1B.
However this change affects the flight behaviour of Pilotwings. So the biplane demo on Pilotwings - recorded with an old DSP1 - leads to a plane crash when played back on a DSP1B.
sd2snes attempts to load dsp1.bin when loading Pilotwings (if not found, it will fall back to dsp1b.bin). So if you delete dsp1.bin you will observe the same behaviour on sd2snes ;)

Offline kmksoulja

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2015, 08:36 AM »
Very interesting facts there ikari

Offline goombakid

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2015, 08:40 AM »
The reason is DSP1 vs. DSP1B :) Pilotwings uses the old DSP1.
Some math table entries were wrong in the old DSP1 ROM which made them update it for the DSP1B.
However this change affects the flight behaviour of Pilotwings. So the biplane demo on Pilotwings - recorded with an old DSP1 - leads to a plane crash when played back on a DSP1B.
sd2snes attempts to load dsp1.bin when loading Pilotwings (if not found, it will fall back to dsp1b.bin). So if you delete dsp1.bin you will observe the same behaviour on sd2snes ;)


Offline Sephiroth81

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2015, 01:08 AM »

 In any case I'm more curious to know if this same behavior with the demo light planes is on the Super Everdrive, other various emulators or even the VC for the Wii/Wii U. It is possible this is already known by emu authors and there might not be a fix for it. If someone is registered at byuu's forums, by all means let him know...

Sorry to bump this thread, but I was reading it with interest and took some various tests, and sure enough run any port of SNES9X and the plane crashes, ZSNES the same.

However, the Wii Virtual Console emulated version of Pilotwings (which I assume is the same as for the Wii U) - the plane lands! Just as it does from a proper Pilotwings cartridge on a proper Super Nintendo!

I'll never criticise the accuracy of the Virtual Console ever again - seems its pretty decent for the SNES!

Offline nuu

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2015, 10:46 PM »
That's pretty cool! Nintendo should have all the hardware specs at hand already but it's still cool that they choose to implement them properly. :)

Offline AW87

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2015, 01:07 AM »
Interesting thread and bug. Now it would also be interesting to know, how this game reacts on good clone-consoles like "Retron 3" or "Super Retro Trio" when it is played from real game-modul or with SD2SNES. Is the bug also there? Can not test this anymore on my "Retron 3", because of the bad smell of the material i sold this clone. Technical it was a superb clone, but the chemical smell of the case (which dont stops even after some months) disturbs me to much.

Offline Link83

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2016, 07:42 PM »
The reason is DSP1 vs. DSP1B :) Pilotwings uses the old DSP1.
Some math table entries were wrong in the old DSP1 ROM which made them update it for the DSP1B.
However this change affects the flight behaviour of Pilotwings. So the biplane demo on Pilotwings - recorded with an old DSP1 - leads to a plane crash when played back on a DSP1B.
sd2snes attempts to load dsp1.bin when loading Pilotwings (if not found, it will fall back to dsp1b.bin). So if you delete dsp1.bin you will observe the same behaviour on sd2snes ;)
I'm curious to know if there are any games that use the DSP1B that dont work 100% correctly when using a DSP1/1A? (The opposite problem to Pilotwings)

I only ask as I have a Super EverDrive with an original DSP1 installed (Since AFAIK no DSP1B games were released in Europe that I could use as a donor)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 04:30 AM by Link83 »

Offline nuu

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Re: Pilotwings (SD2SNES vs. Emulators)
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2016, 12:28 PM »
The only games that seems to use DSP-1B is Ballz 3D and certain versions of Super Mario Kart. Since Super Mario Kart exists as both DSP-1 and DSP-1B carts, I guess it works fine with both chips. Ballz 3D might rely on the 1B bug fixes though.