Author Topic: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package  (Read 67508 times)

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Offline Necronomfive

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #105 on: July 01, 2017, 04:46 PM »
Even with the latest version, as I said before, the bass channel is significantly lower in volume than it should be in this mapper.

Firstly, thanks for hunting down those recordings.

I did an A/B comparison using my headphones.

While I agree that there is a slight difference in this particular patch (I used the same track as a reference you posted in the youtube video), my personal impression is that the difference is not nearly big enough to call it "significantly".

What I can also confirm again (which is what Asbrandt has been claiming) is the lack of low-pass filtering on my FPGA implementation. For example, the bell-like instrument sounds way sharper on my core.

What I do also hear in the original HW recording is a significantly "dryer" bass reproduction, compared to the youtube video you posted.

I therefore stand by my claim that the youtube video has been "enhanced" a lot by applying EQ. Using headphones, I can easily spot an additional chorus effect.

Just to show you what a bad idea it is to reference non-HW recordings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_2wm6IzavA&index=8&list=PL2917FA48A56DB74C

Quote
The perfect scenario would be to raise the bass channel and lower the PCM drums, although I'm sure it's not that easy, since Necronomfive did mention getting clipping with the mix as it currently is.

You seem to completely ignore 2 important statements from my previous post, so let me reiterate them:

1. I never ever did claim that my mapper sounds 100% identical to the original HW. I even acknowledged Asbrandt's observation that the high frequency filtering is absent on the Everdrive N8 (crispy sound).

2. The difference in the bass reproduction CAN actually be attributed to the difference in HW mixing between the FPGA<>VRC7, and how the signal is further processed in the analogue domain on the Everdrive N8.

I already made a clear statement regarding this: I won't be adding any kind of EQ processing in the FPGA to countermeasure the difference in the analogue sound reproduction. All my concern is that the digital model closely resembles the real VRC7 / YM2413.

In this regard, the only point which can still be improved are the parameters for the instrument rom (which have been, so far, reverse engineered by ear). But this issue also affects the implementation on the emulators. To get all parameters correctly, the VRC7 needs to be decapped.

Just one last point:

Quote
I work as a sound engineer in post-production for feature films myself, so I'd like to think my professional background would give my findings just a little bit of legitimacy

Frankly, I don't give a hoot about any attempts at argumentum ad verecundiam.

In my POV, regarding this topic, you'd gain more credibility if you would have created some music tracks on Yamaha FM HW before. Or did some VRC7 / Yamaha FM programming / reverse engineering.

Then, your point / argumentation would have looked quite differently right from the start.

I appreciate all kind of bug reports, but this here is clearly out of scope for this project, since it's not even a bug.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 01:26 AM by Necronomfive »

Offline Asbrandt

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2017, 01:31 AM »
Looking at the spectrum plots for my test recordings of the FM-only intro sequence on Everdrive vs real cartridge, it appears as though the Everdrive's analog audio output has a notch in the 600hz to 2.4khz range, possibly centered on ~1.2khz but I can't be sure, theres some inconsistencies in the level relationship.

The volumes are identical below this range and consistent with the real VRC7's ~2.28khz low-pass filter above this range, but inside that 600hz to 2khz range the real cartridge is louder and I strongly doubt it's an error in the digital implementation of the VRC7, but rather something introduced in the analog areas of the Everdrive itself.

Although because I no longer own a real cartridge of Akumajou Densetsu and the Everdrive cannot run Just Breed, I cannot confirm if this notch is present in other games.

EDIT: Unrelated, but you mentioned mixing channels being involved in the potential for peaking, could you use time-division multiplexing instead, as that's what I've been told that the real VRC7 and YM2413 that it's based on use?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 02:55 AM by Asbrandt »

Offline leonquest

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #107 on: July 13, 2017, 10:40 PM »
Hi Necronomfive.

Brian Parker from retroUSB had this to say:

"VRC7 is likely the same problem that the initial everdrive mappers had and must be fixed on that end.  They were using poor FPGA design which couldn't handle the variable clock needed for HDMI systems.  Changing the bus timing to fix one version would break another.  That is why it changed with every beta firmware."

Which means I'm fucked. Oh well.

If it works on real hardware, it should work on the AVS, but what can you do.

I was thinking perhaps you'd be willing to share your mapper source with Krikzz to see if he can integrate it to the main everdrive FW release, and maybe fix this.

Would you be willing to open source your VRC7?
Everdrive64 V3 - SD2Snes rev. f - Everdrive N8 fami - MegaEd X3 - PS IO - MODE - MISTer

Offline arkanoid-player

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #108 on: July 16, 2017, 05:13 PM »
After scouring the interwebs, I found some authentic, unprocessed recordings of Lagrange Point audio from an AV Famicom provided by rainwarrior at NESDEV:

http://rainwarrior.ca/projects/nes/lagrange_point_ref.zip

These recordings are quite noisy. Perhaps because of bad sound card or something. If you want, I could do better recording straight from my Famicom AV (I own the original game in CIB ;D )

Offline relic

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #109 on: July 28, 2017, 06:00 AM »
I'd like to point out that the AV Famicom has imbalanced expansion audio mixing, it is too loud compared to the 2A03 audio. This affects all expansion audio games, not just Lagrange Point. You guys should be using an original Famicom or Twin Famicom for testing, those consoles have correct audio balance.

At the very least, could we get an alternate package for the original Famicom?

Offline polyh3dron

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #110 on: July 28, 2017, 06:47 AM »
The AV Fami does have a different 2A03/Expansion balance than the OG console, but what is being compared is the EDN8 vs the cart on the same console. The VRC6 75_70 mapper is super close to the Akumajou Densetsu cart. VRC7, not so much.

Offline Great Hierophant

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #111 on: July 28, 2017, 07:33 AM »
Saying that the AV Famicom has audio balance issues is a gross oversimplification, later revisions of the original Famicom PCBs also have similar audio levels to the AV Famicom.  Sharp Famicoms are so nasty in their audio that they shouldn't be used to compare anything : http://en.nicovideo.geo.jp/?sm16346242

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Offline polyh3dron

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #112 on: July 28, 2017, 07:35 AM »
Saying that the AV Famicom has audio balance issues is a gross oversimplification, later revisions of the original Famicom PCBs also have similar audio levels to the AV Famicom.  Sharp Famicoms are so nasty in their audio that they shouldn't be used to compare anything : http://en.nicovideo.geo.jp/?sm16346242
Yes, the balance issues inherent to those console models are significant and well documented, but said issues are constant when comparing between the cart and the EDN8, are they not?

Offline relic

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #113 on: July 28, 2017, 05:23 PM »
Great Heirophant, have you ever actually listened to an expansion audio game on a Famicom and then an AV Famicom? I have, the audio imbalance on the AV Famicom is bad. It makes the drums in Lagrange Point almost inaudible and games like Akumajo Densetsu sound really off without the 2A03.

The problem I'm trying to point out is it's horribly misguided to be using the AV Famicom as a audio balance reference point. The white and red Famicom is the original Famicom and should be used instead, if only because you can evenly hear the 2A03 and expansion audio, instead of one being too loud and the other too faint. Ideally, the VRC7 package should be fixed to increase the expansion audio in Lagrange Point, but at minimum an alternate "OG Famicom" package would be appreciated.

I tried the EDN8 VRC7 package on my white & red Famicom and the audio is like the opposite of the AV Famicom, the expansion audio is too faint and the 2A03 is too loud. You end up hearing mostly the drums with the FM in the distance.

Oh, forgot to mention something. There's two main versions of the white and red Famicom. One of them has a "FF" logo on the front panel (stands for Famicom Family), these consoles share the audio imbalance of the AV Famicom and have an updated motherboard. The white and red Famicom lacking the FF logo on the front is the true original, it has numerous revisions but they all have correct audio balancing.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 05:27 PM by relic »

Offline Great Hierophant

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #114 on: July 29, 2017, 03:17 AM »
Great Heirophant, have you ever actually listened to an expansion audio game on a Famicom and then an AV Famicom? I have, the audio imbalance on the AV Famicom is bad. It makes the drums in Lagrange Point almost inaudible and games like Akumajo Densetsu sound really off without the 2A03.

The problem I'm trying to point out is it's horribly misguided to be using the AV Famicom as a audio balance reference point. The white and red Famicom is the original Famicom and should be used instead, if only because you can evenly hear the 2A03 and expansion audio, instead of one being too loud and the other too faint. Ideally, the VRC7 package should be fixed to increase the expansion audio in Lagrange Point, but at minimum an alternate "OG Famicom" package would be appreciated.

I tried the EDN8 VRC7 package on my white & red Famicom and the audio is like the opposite of the AV Famicom, the expansion audio is too faint and the 2A03 is too loud. You end up hearing mostly the drums with the FM in the distance.

Oh, forgot to mention something. There's two main versions of the white and red Famicom. One of them has a "FF" logo on the front panel (stands for Famicom Family), these consoles share the audio imbalance of the AV Famicom and have an updated motherboard. The white and red Famicom lacking the FF logo on the front is the true original, it has numerous revisions but they all have correct audio balancing.

I have listened to expansion sound on a non-FF red and white Famicom, and I agree the sound levels are probably the most balanced on it.  These recording were made with a non-FF AV-modded Famicom : http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8639

I hope to make some recordings myself when I get a Lagrange Point cartridge someday soon.
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Offline relic

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2017, 03:31 AM »
I have an English translated Lagrange Point cart, want me to do recordings on my non-FF Famicom and AV Famicom?

Offline Necronomfive

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #116 on: August 06, 2017, 11:45 PM »
Hi,

I added a new vesion here:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=99413940728209525032

Regarding VRC7 FM support, this version fixes an inaccuracy with the evelope generator for modulator operators.

...meaning the sound core is more accurate now. ;)

Of course, the biggest change is not for gamers, but for actual developers, who still want to make things for original HW:

The core is not a VRC7 anymore,but a full Yamaha YM2413!

That's right, you now get the complete package!

-> 9 channels of FM sound!
-> 5 rhythm channels!

And even more:

-> Core can be switched between VRC7 and YM2413 instrument ROMs! (set / erase bit 6 of $E000)

This is for makers.

BR,

Necronomfive


« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 12:37 AM by Necronomfive »

Offline leonquest

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #117 on: August 07, 2017, 03:48 AM »
Hi,

I added a new vesion here:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=99413940728209525032

Regarding VRC7 FM support, this version fixes an inaccuracy with the evelope generator for modulator operators.

...meaning the sound core is more accurate now. ;)

Of course, the biggest change is not for gamers, but for actual developers, who still want to make things for original HW:

The core is not a VRC7 anymore,but a full Yamaha YM2413!

That's right, you now get the complete package!

-> 9 channels of FM sound!
-> 5 rhythm channels!

And even more:

-> Core can be switched between VRC7 and YM2413 instrument ROMs! (set / erase bit 6 of $E000)

This is for makers.

BR,

Necronomfive

AWESOMEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

it might work with the AVS now, I'll give it a try tonight.
Everdrive64 V3 - SD2Snes rev. f - Everdrive N8 fami - MegaEd X3 - PS IO - MODE - MISTer

Offline Jegriva

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #118 on: August 07, 2017, 04:13 AM »
Hi,

I added a new vesion here:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=99413940728209525032

Regarding VRC7 FM support, this version fixes an inaccuracy with the evelope generator for modulator operators.

...meaning the sound core is more accurate now. ;)

Of course, the biggest change is not for gamers, but for actual developers, who still want to make things for original HW:

The core is not a VRC7 anymore,but a full Yamaha YM2413!

That's right, you now get the complete package!

-> 9 channels of FM sound!
-> 5 rhythm channels!

And even more:

-> Core can be switched between VRC7 and YM2413 instrument ROMs! (set / erase bit 6 of $E000)

This is for makers.

BR,

Necronomfive

Who would had thought this was even possible! Great job! My Lagrange Point game will only get better.

Offline leonquest

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Re: Konami VRC7 Mapper Support Package
« Reply #119 on: August 07, 2017, 07:55 AM »
Hi,

I added a new vesion here:

http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=99413940728209525032

Regarding VRC7 FM support, this version fixes an inaccuracy with the evelope generator for modulator operators.

...meaning the sound core is more accurate now. ;)

Of course, the biggest change is not for gamers, but for actual developers, who still want to make things for original HW:

The core is not a VRC7 anymore,but a full Yamaha YM2413!

That's right, you now get the complete package!

-> 9 channels of FM sound!
-> 5 rhythm channels!

And even more:

-> Core can be switched between VRC7 and YM2413 instrument ROMs! (set / erase bit 6 of $E000)

This is for makers.

BR,

Necronomfive

UPDATE: it works perfectly on the AVS now, which happens to have a expansion chip volume slider, so no disparity between SFX and music fot me.

Once again I thank you a billion times, you are a god amongst men. Now 100% of my elite nes collection of the best 400+ NES games work on the everdrive + AVS combo. Suck on that NT Mini.
Everdrive64 V3 - SD2Snes rev. f - Everdrive N8 fami - MegaEd X3 - PS IO - MODE - MISTer