Author Topic: Colors off with some games?!  (Read 1865 times)

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Offline Insomnial

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Colors off with some games?!
« on: June 07, 2019, 02:18 PM »
Hello,

So I have an ED64 v3, and everythings works just fine on my PAL N64. But with a few games their colors a way off. It looks a bit like chromatic aberration, like how the different color channels are not properly alinged which is odd. Please see the attached image, it shows OoT Master Quest (PAL). The "normal" OoT (also PAL, of course) works just fine.

What can I do about it?

Offline Galron

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Re: Colors off with some games?!
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2019, 04:54 PM »
I doubt it has anything to do with the EverDrive, but more to do with your system itself, and how the games were designed. MasterQuest of course is an odd one that was designed to run on a different system originally (gamecube), that would have implemented and interpreted colors differently. Because it was essentially a modified rom (showing Gamecube controllers) running in a specialized emulator, it was easy to extract and put on flash carts. But that doesn't mean that was truly optimised color pallet for the N64, since it may have been more optomized for the Gamecube.


That might be a possible explanation for Master Quest, but not sure if it would  explain the issue with other pal games. Other than it's probably an issue with the output from N64, and or how the TV reads signals, and not the EverDrive... I don't think EverDrive has any influence over how colors are displayed.


Offline ozidual

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Re: Colors off with some games?!
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2019, 05:38 PM »
It is the Master Quest rom.  Though it says PAL, it is an NTSC rom.  The OoT Master Quest GameCube disc came with an emulator and the emulator used NTSC roms even for the PAL system.  There currently is no Master Quest rom that runs on the old PAL systems. 
Projects: Zelda OoT GCtoN64, Doshin the Giant, SSSV, Sim City 64, Getter Love, Shiren
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Offline supersign

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Re: Colors off with some games?!
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2019, 06:13 PM »
It is the Master Quest rom.  Though it says PAL, it is an NTSC rom.  The OoT Master Quest GameCube disc came with an emulator and the emulator used NTSC roms even for the PAL system.  There currently is no Master Quest rom that runs on the old PAL systems.
That's right. It is recommended to run Master Quest on a Japanese or American N64. You can use your N64 PAL power brick on the NTSC N64's. There is an upcoming mod called the UltraPIF that can switch between 50 and 60hz, like the SNES's SuperCIC mod. That'll be really cool if it all works out.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 06:28 PM by supersign »
My backup of Saturnus' homebrew ED64 tools for v2 & v3 ED's

Offline Aroenai

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Re: Colors off with some games?!
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2019, 12:19 AM »
The PIF has nothing to do with it, that's just for region locking.


For the colors, unfortunately there's not going to be much you can do with that CRT. Your best bet is going to be to have one of the viletim RGB mods installed and use some type of 60hz to 50hz downscaler. Alternatively, and probably cheaper, is to get yourself an UltraHDMI mod and start using your console on an HD TV, since that hardware mod will handle all the video conversions for you.

You may be able to find another CRT tv that's more compatible with the 60hz signal, but I don't have much experience with PAL televisions unfortunately.
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Everdrive 64 v2.01 modified with an UltraCIC II, 64drive HW2

Offline r1ggles

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Re: Colors off with some games?!
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2019, 03:42 AM »
You may be able to find another CRT tv that's more compatible with the 60hz signal, but I don't have much experience with PAL televisions unfortunately.

All RGB compatible PAL CRT's (pretty much all of them since the early 90s) will accept 60Hz, the specification is the PAL60 standard, when you play NTSC games it'll always display PAL60 with all PAL game consoles with RGB output.

Best solution is to get eTim's RGB board, it has deblur just like the ultraHDMI, and for a fraction of the cost, seeing as OP is in Europe he likely won't need a retrotink or anything like that either, since most TV's here will have lagless RGB Scart inputs (my LG LCD TV has 16ms of lag, and sharp scaling)

Crappy camera and moire effects from the photograph.
LCD https://i.imgur.com/8e2voTO.jpg

CRT https://i.imgur.com/bKjIP0a.jpg

It looks amazing, no blur no noise or anything, CRT's will always be superior due to how they don't have noticable motionblur and the way they handle motion make even low FPS games look smoother. Not to mention how the roundness of the pixels and light real scanlines makes for a much more pleasant image.

The board costs like 40 dollars including shipping from Australia and a Scart RGB cable (Gamecube Scart cables from eBay) costs 10 dollars, make sure to cut the composite trace and you won't get video/sound noise. It's a pretty easy mod to do as well.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 03:46 AM by r1ggles »

Offline Aroenai

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Re: Colors off with some games?!
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2019, 08:20 PM »
UltraHDMI mod with scan lines enabled for comparison:


The motion blur is usually from just not disabling the Motion or Judder Reduction option on LCD's (which you should always do because it's awful and can give 24fps films a "soap opera" look).

As far as the pixels, there's 2 main factors in play for CRT: scan lines and the shadow mask. In standard definition tv you get a 480i/576i signal, with each scan on the CRT tv you get half the height of the original (240/288), since most n64 games run at 240p/288p that means you get a progressive image with blank space between the scan lines on a CRT display. Since LCD's don't use scan lines and display the full 480i signal at once, you see the duplicated lines in the image (this will make text blurry, sprites less sharp, etc.) Now, also on a CRT tv you don't actually have "pixels" because each dot is actually a set of red, green, and blue dots masked off by a black filter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CRT_screen._closeup.jpg) which blurs the image, additionally hiding the jagged lines the console generates and making edges seem smoother.
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Mostly working on Zelda OoT & MM GC patches
Also, breaking region protections
Everdrive 64 v2.01 modified with an UltraCIC II, 64drive HW2

Offline r1ggles

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Re: Colors off with some games?!
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 02:39 PM »

The motion blur is usually from just not disabling the Motion or Judder Reduction option on LCD's (which you should always do because it's awful and can give 24fps films a "soap opera" look).


No, the motionblur I'm talking about is the default one basically every modern screen has that isn't a 120Hz+ display, the pixel response time. https://www.testufo.com/ follow the 60fps example with your eyes, and the UFO will look blurry as it moves, meanwhile on a high refresh rate or CRT display it will look clear and sharp as you follow it with your eyes without increasing the framerate above 60fps, simply because the pixels (or scanline) won't show image retention and slightly smudge the image like 60Hz LCD displays do. That's also one of the reason the jump from 60Hz displays to higher frequency ones is such a big one even when the game is locked at 60fps, and why CRT's have been used in smashbros and older competitive games for such a long time despite only being 60Hz games. So clarity is perceived as better as every projected image of things in motion is sharp and defined.

And as for why low fps games look more fluid on a CRT even though they aren't, I'm not sure, maybe it has to do with that the tech relies on persistence of vision? It's just perceived that way, scroll jitter in some 2D games (like Mario All Stars) is a lot more noticeable on modern displays for some reason.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 03:28 PM by r1ggles »