Author Topic: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles  (Read 19731 times)

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Offline Majestic_Lizard

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2018, 05:32 AM »
I generally hate internet drama...
That was obviously not my intention. My central point is that it is irresponsible for an author to claim that a product--any product--damages electronic hardware without offering a single conclusive piece of physical evidence.

At the risk of sounding defensive, this person pretty much distorted everything I said into a number of straw-men, then threw in the predicable "he-isn't-an-engineer-so-he-can't-know" and the predictable "he-doesn't-agree-with-me-so-he-has-not-done-research".

It is not reasonable to claim that the author didn't profit from the article because he "has a day job" and is an "ever-drive user". The author sells products related to the mega drive on the internet. It would be unreasonable to deny that increasing traffic to his article helps him sell his wares.

It is not reasonable to claim that having a single example of a console damaged by a cart would be useless based on the notion that you would need thousands of consoles to build a statistical model with an adequate sample size for the appropriate confidence interval. We are not talking about publishing scientific research or preventing nuclear reactors from melting down. We are talking about flash carts for 30 year old consoles.

It is not reasonable to claim that the author did not ignore Krikzz, when the author actually did ignore Krikzz (by refusing to directly address Krikzz' observation of the author's errors) in the comments section of the article in question and only later responded elsewhere and continued to dance around the criticisms raised without answering them.

If one makes an accusation that any product damages electronic hardware, one is obligated to produce at least a single conclusive piece of physical evidence. This is just a reasonable expectation and good common sense.  Anything less than that is not ethical.

It is good to initially give people the benefit of the doubt before dismissing them as antagonistic and disingenuous, even when it sometimes seems their intention is to distort what one has said by removing context or taking hyperbole to be literal fact.



« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 05:55 AM by Majestic_Lizard »

Offline leonquest

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2018, 10:30 AM »
You didn't do your research. This much was clear to me.

Prove then that he profitted from the site traffic.

Prove then that the 3 older everdrive models on the store do not consume faster a console's lifespan.

You claim that all of your suggestions are reasonable because they sound reasonable to you even though you have no proof, yet you reject scientific research because there is no proof.

At the end of the day, all Krikzz has to substantiate his argument is an old document and all Rene has is his research and analysis. Having a console fail faster due to the use of out of spec devices is difficult to prove unless the failure is immediate, which is not the case here, people who work in tech support will know this.

But nevermind me, you do you, I don't pretend to change your mind, I was just hoping we could take rene off the evil pedestal he was put in.

And yes, you are not an engineer. Let's leave conjecture behind and this argument to the engineers from now on, shall we?
Everdrive64 V3 - SD2Snes rev. f - Everdrive N8 fami - MegaEd X3 - PS IO - MODE - MISTer

Offline James-F

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2018, 11:01 AM »
Let's stop worrying and just enjoy playing some games shall we?
Mega Everdrive x5, Everdrive 64 v3, Everdrive N8, N8 Pro, SD2SNES, Joyzz.

Offline leonquest

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2018, 11:03 AM »
Let's stop worrying and just enjoy playing some games shall we?

Thank you, I agree.
Everdrive64 V3 - SD2Snes rev. f - Everdrive N8 fami - MegaEd X3 - PS IO - MODE - MISTer

Offline EverDriver

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2018, 01:14 PM »
As expected no answers for two simple questions.
Only awkward attempts to protect the person who doesn't want to admit his own mistake.

I understand that you sympathize both parties. But the truth is more important.
There is people who don't care about it. They come to our store and just want to know the truth.

The author started from inevitable "critical damage". And later after our explanation it became only possible "wear and tear".
Isn't it an evidence that he didn't have sufficient skills to distinguish both? Without our explanation it would be still "critical damage".
He had a lot of time for the experiments but didn't have time to look into the datasheet (at least once).
How can you trust him if he can't distinguish "critical damage" and "wear and tear"?

You don't need to have 100 000 consoles or EverDrives to prove your lie.
You just need one single case! But there is no such (even) an unrelated case.

I suppose there should be quite a lot of worn out consoles in the world.
And it least one person having "dangerous" EverDrive should notice a direct consequence: he plays only the EverDrive and his console dies.
At least one such case should exist. I can see tons of different complains in our support each day.
Some of them very strange. But I have never seen any single complain about dead console.
Some of our customers write to us about such innocent and unrelated things but they don't write about a dead console?

Even the technical information is not needed to prove it! But Krikzz provided it to the author. The author ignored it.
That's it.


Offline leonquest

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2018, 02:53 PM »
Hi everdriver

Sorry my answer couldn't satisfy you.

Cheers.
Everdrive64 V3 - SD2Snes rev. f - Everdrive N8 fami - MegaEd X3 - PS IO - MODE - MISTer

Offline EverDriver

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2018, 03:50 PM »
Hi!

No problem! Everything's ok.

The answers are easy:
Q.1: There are no damaged consoles. Even single one. A year after the sensational investigation still no damaged consoles. It's so because there is no reason for that.
Q.2: I guess he has actually checked the technical documentation and found that everything is ok. Now he needs to admit the mistake but he doesn't want to do that.

I really can't understand what makes people to protect a person making obvious false allegations and ignore reality and common sense?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 04:14 PM by EverDriver »

Offline James-F

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2018, 05:04 PM »
I really can't understand what makes people to protect a person making obvious false allegations and ignore reality and common sense?
Charisma?
Mega Everdrive x5, Everdrive 64 v3, Everdrive N8, N8 Pro, SD2SNES, Joyzz.

Offline leonquest

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2018, 05:46 PM »
Hi!

No problem! Everything's ok.

The answers are easy:
Q.1: There are no damaged consoles. Even single one. A year after the sensational investigation still no damaged consoles. It's so because there is no reason for that.
Q.2: I guess he has actually checked the technical documentation and found that everything is ok. Now he needs to admit the mistake but he doesn't want to do that.

I really can't understand what makes people to protect a person making obvious false allegations and ignore reality and common sense?

Alright, let's give this another try.

I re-read the article to try to address some of the points made here, here's what I got::

Q1)  there are damaged consoles mentioned by rene, but these were damaged from the use of cheap chinese multicarts that have significantly worse design than any of the older everdrives but no failures have been reported from everdrives yet. As a matter of fact the article really focuses on getting people to stop using chinese carts. He ends the note by saying "I suspect poorly designed Everdrives will require more time before we start seeing failures.". The question here is, if anyone reports to you a broken console in a few years from now and blames the use of the everdrive, will you admit it was due to the everdrive?

Q2) there is no evidence he checked the documents. I am actually disappointed that those two did not continue their argument to the very end and left us all in a cliffhanger. Be that the case Rene cannot admit he is wrong until you prove him wrong, and you cannot do this with mere spec sheets alone, remember he additionally made a video where he proved the diodes clamping and used his oscilloscope to show the voltage mismatch, to prove his theory, so in this case you need to disprove observation and analysis with more observation and analysis.

He's not making false allegations, hence my arguments, what I'm still not sold on is the conclusion of his research, but only because I'm not an engineer and nobody else has tried to have a live debate with him. Nobody is ignoring reality and common sense, these are 2 arguments that can be solved by engineers in the know, but they are unwilling to, it just seemed unfair that you would do an ad hominem because you cannot disprove his research using the scientific method.

Regardless of what I have said thus far,  I have confidence in krikzz's products and will continue to use them, so feel free to continue demonizing db electronics if you feel it's necessary for the good of the business, I won't continue replying to this thread as we are going in circles here.
Everdrive64 V3 - SD2Snes rev. f - Everdrive N8 fami - MegaEd X3 - PS IO - MODE - MISTer

Offline Sarge

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2018, 07:28 PM »
I agree with leonquest on this.  His response acknowledges both the physical reality of circuit design, and what KRIKzz has claimed from the data sheets.  I, too, am a bit disappointed that they couldn't set aside their differences and actually come to a conclusion on the matter.

On top of all that, given the age of the consoles in question, how are we to know if the EverDrive caused the failure, or if the system was going to fail regardless?  I know there are consoles these days that fail all the time, but isolating the cause of said failure can be tough.

I honestly don't see the point of getting combative about it; I don't think anything was originally stated from malice or ulterior motives.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 07:32 PM by Sarge »
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Offline EverDriver

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2018, 08:06 PM »
(anything written by me is related only to EverDrives as long as I don't care about anything else).

I really don't care about him. Neither demonizing him is interesting to me.
I even didn't know that he existed before he started to demonize EverDrives.
But I do really care when an unskilled liar advises to avoid EverDrives and spreads his lie in internet without any single real reason or proof.

He says: this "overload" should damage the hardware. At least at some unknown point of time in the future.
No. The technical documentation says everything is ok. Everything is in the normal working range with a substantial margin.
Silence...

Let's finish it:
Q1) After long years of usage even single EverDrive wasn't able to damage even single console.
Q2) He ignores the technical information and prefers not to answer reasonable arguments.

Hi Sarge!

A short form of the article:
Some crappy Chinese flash carts killed some consoles. Avoid using EverDrives!
I haven't checked any technical documentation. I don't have any skills to predict wear and tear of hardware.
But I suppose that EverDrives will cause a failure in the future.
Ok... everything is logical and consistent.

If EverDrive ever damages any single console we would know about it. Believe me.
People using EverDrives only would experience substantially higher failure rates than those who use both the standard cartridges and EverDrives.
And even higher than those who using the standard cartridges only.
It never happened!

I understand guys that you are his fans but you should be ready that people are not perfect.
They make mistakes sometimes.

Offline Sarge

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2018, 09:52 PM »
I'm not his "fan".  I'm in this for objective analysis, not taking sides in a spat that has been ridiculous from the get-go.  I have enjoyed KRIKzz's carts, and I also see where Rene is coming from as far as the engineering is concerned.

As you say, people are not perfect.  Rene may be wrong.  Then again, KRIKzz might be as well.  I haven't seen a definitive compelling argument from either side, although given the overall power consumption difference, I'd lean a bit more toward KRIKzz's assessment that it's okay.

As for the two questions:

1)  How does one even properly assess whether or not an EverDrive killed a console?  I think a lot of people might assume that the console simply failed from age.  I don't believe that such a definitive statement can be made.  Furthermore, one could very end up with "latch-up" conditions, which won't kill a circuit immediately, but eventually will do so.

2)  This may be true.  I wish there would be a bit more cooperation on this.  Clearly, using level translators going forward is the right approach.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 09:56 PM by Sarge »
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Offline leonquest

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2018, 09:52 PM »
but you should be ready that people are not perfect.
They make mistakes sometimes.

Correct, this also applies to krikzz and his designs.  This is why we want some closure on the subject from a knowledgeable engineer.
Everdrive64 V3 - SD2Snes rev. f - Everdrive N8 fami - MegaEd X3 - PS IO - MODE - MISTer

Offline EverDriver

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2018, 10:27 PM »
I haven't written anywhere that the first EverDrives had a perfect design.
Even the modern ones are not perfect.
But neither of them has damaged any consoles.
The problem is that he asked the readers of the article avoid our products.
Don't you think guys that to have a right to advise that you should have at least one single damaged console.
He doesn't have it. Even single one.
Or at least to have a very serious proof. The same.

The real life shows you: no damage. everything is ok.
The technical documents shows you: everything is ok.

What we are talking about?
There is no problem. There is no reason to continue to talk about it.
He wrote nonsense. Krikzz explained to him that.
Likely he understood the problem and admitted the mistake.
He just forgot to inform his readers about it.

I am curious what you are going to say when he finally will write the truth?
His webpage has been hacked or something like that?

It's not about how perfect the design is.
It's about very serious false allegations without reason.

I repeat: first he wrote that EverDrives damage consoles.
Then he thought it's too stupid to write that EverDrives damage consoles if there is no damaged consoles and decided to change it to more flexible:
EverDrives cause "wear and tear". Without any specific time ranges.
Anyway no one can check it well.
If you are sure that EverDrive can cause wear and tear and consequent inevitable failure you should know the rate of "tear and wear".
At least a very rough estimate: 1, 5, 10, 20, 30, 100 years.
What amount of tear and wear and which parts are affected by it.
A serious engineer would do it. An amateur will just suppose but still advise avoid EverDrives.
Krikzz never pretended to be a professional hardware engineer or scientist.
He just does his job and he doesn't make any allegations.
The author decided he is smart enough to blame EverDrives.
A lot of people trust you. They read your words.
If you are making a very serious allegations you should be very sure. Not to suppose.
Now it's time for him to have courage to be responsible for his words.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 11:17 PM by EverDriver »

Offline Sarge

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Re: [ARTICLE] - The Dangers of 3.3V Flash in Retro Consoles
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2018, 11:20 PM »
You can't actually know that with electronics.  There's no foolproof way to estimate how quickly latch-up will destroy a circuit, for example.  Heck, you can't even be absolutely sure even with modern electronics and much more rigorous testing.

I'm a computer engineer, and while I haven't done a lot in the PCB/chip design areas in some time, the points leveled by Rene should be easy to rebut if they are untrue without casting aspersions on his character, regardless of what his underlying motives (if any) would be.  I would much prefer a professional response to his claims.

Again, I very much appreciate the products I have (SD2SNES, EDN8, MEDV2, TED2.5).
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 11:27 PM by Sarge »
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