Author Topic: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming  (Read 320474 times)

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Offline Sarge

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #315 on: July 17, 2018, 06:08 PM »
I don't think it's in the "HI" state, either.  I know that's what the docs say, but the volume drop between the previous mapper implementation and the current one is substantial on my NES.  It's so quiet you can barely hear it.  And yes, I realize I don't have a Famicom, and I certainly don't have an AV Famicom.  However, it is my understanding that the 47K resistor value was chosen to work well with the EDN8.
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Offline James-F

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #316 on: July 17, 2018, 06:36 PM »
It is in fact set to HI, there is no need for guessing.

The new audio mappers were developed and balanced on the AV Famicom by other developers (not KRIKzz) so they will indeed sound quieter on the original famicom.
The old VRC6 mapper by krikzz was much louder but completely wrong sounding.

edit:
I do not have a US NES and can't compare the sound.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 06:41 PM by James-F »
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Offline Sarge

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #317 on: July 17, 2018, 08:01 PM »
I'm a bit curious...  how many folks are actually running an AV Famicom?  I know perhaps it isn't optimal, but it would certainly help those of us with normal Famicoms or modded NES systems to have a few different versions of the firmware to choose so that the audio isn't almost silent.

Strangely, the MMC5 mapper sounds correct to me, though.  Just Breed is one of the few games that uses that chip's audio capabilities, and it isn't too quiet on my system.
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Offline brianvgplayer

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #318 on: July 17, 2018, 09:17 PM »
The new audio mappers were developed and balanced on the AV Famicom by other developers (not KRIKzz) so they will indeed sound quieter on the original famicom.
The old VRC6 mapper by krikzz was much louder but completely wrong sounding.


One thing I liked is that the custom VRC6 mapper was available in different volumes with the 100 one sounding perfect on the AVS at lower volume. I was surprised when Krikzz chose the AV Famicom balanced mapper, despite various posts, older and newer, suggesting that a few of the mappers were too quiet on earlier FC models. I liked being able to replace the mapper, but the beta version combined the mapper with another mapper number, making it harder to replace. At least I can adjust the volume on the AVS.

Offline Sarge

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #319 on: July 17, 2018, 09:41 PM »
The new audio mappers were developed and balanced on the AV Famicom by other developers (not KRIKzz) so they will indeed sound quieter on the original famicom.
The old VRC6 mapper by krikzz was much louder but completely wrong sounding.


One thing I liked is that the custom VRC6 mapper was available in different volumes with the 100 one sounding perfect on the AVS at lower volume. I was surprised when Krikzz chose the AV Famicom balanced mapper, despite various posts, older and newer, suggesting that a few of the mappers were too quiet on earlier FC models. I liked being able to replace the mapper, but the beta version combined the mapper with another mapper number, making it harder to replace. At least I can adjust the volume on the AVS.
That was my experience with the VRC6 as well.  The mapper can still be replaced, but you lose save-state functionality.  I swapped out for the 100/100 version, and it sounds right on my system, at least when comparing to playback in emulators, through the NSF plugin in Winamp, or the various YouTube soundtrack videos.
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Offline Arnold101

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #320 on: July 17, 2018, 11:01 PM »
I don't think it's in the "HI" state, either.  I know that's what the docs say, but the volume drop between the previous mapper implementation and the current one is substantial on my NES.  It's so quiet you can barely hear it.  And yes, I realize I don't have a Famicom, and I certainly don't have an AV Famicom.  However, it is my understanding that the 47K resistor value was chosen to work well with the EDN8.
yeah, but JamesF says is on hi so it's on hi lol! ahahaha even when other people confirm what i'm saying.

@JamesF: you are Mr. insolence in person instead.

Offline Sarge

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #321 on: July 17, 2018, 11:34 PM »
Well, given what folks have explained, it's entirely possible that it is "HI", but balanced for the AV Famicom, which would make it very low for a lot of other setups.  I think only KRIKzz can answer that question for certain.

And no sense getting rude, y'all.
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Offline fernan1234

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #322 on: July 18, 2018, 03:44 AM »
So it's impossible that is on HI i think is on LO, or now i will hear them like in v14 wich is not  :)

What you think is wrong, what you ignore over and over is right.

Here is the official change log from KRIKzz for you to ignore once again:
Quote
nesos-v14 28.10.2016
1)Fixed MMC4 (glitches in Fire Emblem)
2)New mappers support. 31, 137, 138, 139, 141, 147, 168
3)Removed "audio mix vol" option. Now it always in "Hi" state
4)Removed "Mapper info" menu due the lack of memory space
5)Minor bugfix


And here is me saying the very same thing AGAIN just for you to ignore:
The new audio mappers in v20 were created by other people (not KRIKzz) to sound correct on their AV Famicom.
The original famicom was very loud internally and was clipping the waveform even before it reached the TV or the external audio cartridge,
that's why the developers of these audio mappers chose to use AV Famicom as reference, since it has much better and cleaner audio topology than the original.

Now why are you so vocal about it Arnold101??
It's only three games, but you make it as though it is a life or death situation.
Cut your whining and move on.


Just want to add that clipping may only be an issue in some revisions of the motherboard on the original Famicom, as well as the early Twin Famicom (which had additional audio issues). think it was only in a couple of mid-late production models where this was a problem. Both the early and late revisions had the right sound. Same with the late Twin Famicom.

The AV Famicom definitely deviated from the sound of the original Famicom, and not necessarily for the better. Given that most Famicom games had their audio designed around the audio output of the original Famicom, it would even be fair to say that AV Famicom audio is inaccurate (not only in terms of balance, but also has a different sound signature). The only advantage of the AV Famicom is doing composite and pseudo stereo without modifications.


Offline Arnold101

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #323 on: July 18, 2018, 05:46 AM »
like i said about sound quality on famicom console.  ::)

Offline PalAndreew

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #324 on: July 18, 2018, 06:25 AM »
I have this experience:
I soldered the resistors from the CPUs 12K and 20K and replaced them with potentiometers 100K + 100K on Aux1 / Aux2 in 2A03 ... console with revision "G" (family name with FF logo):
- after a brief manipulation, real-time comparison with the "emulator" versions: the volume of the sound "Gimmick!" additional audio channels -
 Delivers me the best impressions about the entire cassette and firmware V20_b2!
I made a clean record (3 files) on the analog input - 1. without modification, 2. with it and 3. "standard" - on the emulator Nestopia. (resistance change 12k>15k, and 20k>26k)
loudness is indifferent with Emulation   (subjectively).

all the same I, as well as many - Wait new update, that changes in FDS (where the output is like a riddled piano) and 024 mapper-sound for
the classic FC / NES became quieter. but it's only 3 -5 games. personally I'm not in a hurry! let the developers - not in a hurry and quietly develop the code.
.
very interesting nuance:
on the FCEUX emulators and the little-known "puNES" - the behavior of the additional sound in Gimmick! Very unusual:
the sound is not "short, sonorous," but rather "continuous / continuous," but the volume does not change .. it makes "psychologically" - louder and stronger "audio channels" ... I'm sure it's already a wrong decision, because in the original cassette - this is not!
(and yes: thousands and thousands of games are amazingly working on the version 20V_b2 ... I think that it is necessary to leave the "choice" of the user - what firmware to fill in the N8: separately for AV-FC and FC "classic", because the owners of the second option : most and most often occur.)

(I can later upload the .Wav format files for a visual comparison).
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 06:37 AM by PalAndreew »

Offline Arnold101

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #325 on: July 18, 2018, 06:34 AM »
can you explain better your mod with a drawing? is not very clear. from what i understand you put trimmers only on cpu sound pins and not on the exp sound pin, so how it can sound louder if is the exp sound pin the one very low? that mod helps only in balancing the sound not to boost exp sound

Offline PalAndreew

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #326 on: July 18, 2018, 07:01 AM »
can you explain better your mod with a drawing? is not very clear. from what i understand you put trimmers only on cpu sound pins and not on the exp sound pin, so how it can sound louder if is the exp sound pin the one very low? that mod helps only in balancing the sound not to boost exp sound

I will then draw a diagram.
but I did very simply:
1.Desoldering
the resistors (R5 / R4) 12k and 20k coming from 2A03 from pin 1,2 (Aux1 / aux2) are sequentially connected to the "input" (pin 1,2 - there are inputs on the pAPU).
2.and the simple potentiometers (small, two 100k.)
it is necessary to seal the  "end" and the middle of the potentiometer - together .
3.after that, set the values on each:
12K and 20K (approximately) ...
4.and denoted by a thin marker - where these values (that would not be distorting the input from the low resistance) ...
5.then to the solder on a R4/R5 - where there were 12k and 20k.
.and start experiments:
I tried to put both on 100kiloom - that would be heard only "expansion" ...
R5 = 12k (this is a triangle / DPCM)
R4 = 20k (these are two channels "square" and a noise generator).
if I believe my many-hour experiments:
then R5 = "I left at 18-20k."
It for correct work "Gimmick!".
and R4 = "conditionally 25-27K" ... later I will lay out the pictures and the recording files.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 07:09 AM by PalAndreew »

Offline PalAndreew

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #327 on: July 18, 2018, 07:23 AM »
can you explain better your mod with a drawing? is not very clear. from what i understand you put trimmers only on cpu sound pins and not on the exp sound pin, so how it can sound louder if is the exp sound pin the one very low? that mod helps only in balancing the sound not to boost exp sound
Yes . you are right. I only organized the "balances" of the main sound.
In addition: in the game "gimmick!" - the volume of the "extra" audio channel differs little in V16 or V20. because this mod does not "very quietly"
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 11:24 AM by PalAndreew »

Offline Odin Belmont

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #328 on: July 18, 2018, 11:43 PM »
Any idea when we'll see the final release? 

Offline marionintendo

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Re: EDN8 OS v20-BETA. Large update incoming
« Reply #329 on: July 20, 2018, 11:13 PM »
I'm a bit curious...  how many folks are actually running an AV Famicom?  I know perhaps it isn't optimal, but it would certainly help those of us with normal Famicoms or modded NES systems to have a few different versions of the firmware to choose so that the audio isn't almost silent.

I'm using a Famicom everdrive on an AV famicom. AMA. I also am able to use the cart through a converter on a US NES.

By the way, maybe it's a faulty connection or I never noticed it before, but I'm getting really glitched graphics on v20 compared to v16 when playing Namco's Star Wars on the FC Everdrive. I'll provide pictures if anyone cares.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 11:17 PM by marionintendo »