EverDrive Forum

General => EverDrive N8 => Topic started by: EmperorOfTigers on November 13, 2017, 06:04 PM

Title: Recommended systems
Post by: EmperorOfTigers on November 13, 2017, 06:04 PM
I have a NES with normal composite out and a RetroN HD but I'm wanting something better and would like advice on what would be best for me to pick up.

My normal NES is PAL which makes certain games slow and not as good. This is because I live in the EU. The RetroN HD is ok. It gets the basics good but the video quality is a bit off and more importantly compatibility isn't great.

I would like a nice crisp, low latency system that works with flashcards like the EverDrive N8 and Repro carts. Ideally support for Famicom games and expansion audio would be nice.

Thanks,
Empy.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: Jegriva on November 15, 2017, 02:23 PM
If you want to play on a modern display, the AVS (http://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=78&osCsid=3536a8ae70fad06f2bbb22536cbdc3d0) is perfect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGSidnlOhd4 (review by MLIG)

If you want to play on a CRT, I'd suggest an AV Famicom, the last revision of the japanese Nes.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: EmperorOfTigers on November 15, 2017, 03:35 PM
If you want to play on a modern display, the AVS (http://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=78&osCsid=3536a8ae70fad06f2bbb22536cbdc3d0) is perfect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGSidnlOhd4 (review by MLIG)

If you want to play on a CRT, I'd suggest an AV Famicom, the last revision of the japanese Nes.

Thank you for your reply. The AVS looks like a great system. I did see there is an NT Mini as well. How do they compete?

What makes the AV Famicom the best system for CRT?
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: Jegriva on November 15, 2017, 11:46 PM
The NT Mini has a few bells and whistles (I think it goes up to 1080p), but it can also simulate  SHITTON of other consoles (more or less anything 8 bit and down). It also costs about 3 times the AVS.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: EmperorOfTigers on November 16, 2017, 11:06 AM
The NT Mini has a few bells and whistles (I think it goes up to 1080p), but it can also simulate  SHITTON of other consoles (more or less anything 8 bit and down). It also costs about 3 times the AVS.
Thank you. It sounds like it isn't worth it for me as I'm not really bothered about other 8bit systems. I think the AVS would be a good option for me.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: Alchemist on November 16, 2017, 02:13 PM
If you are interested in NES/FMC functionality only, really advantageous features of NT mini would be audio cores by kevtris. And anlogue video output capability. Audio cores emulate specific sound hardware which either not implemented in Everdrive at all or implemented rough or partially. Of course that hardware not found in AVS either. Analogue video output allows to connect NT mini to CRT television and even use Light Gun/Zapper, while AVS is limited to HDMI only and light pistols are out of question.
But despite this, I'd too still recommended to stick with AVS for use with Everdrive. Since there still are issues reported concerning compatibility between NT mini and this flash cartridge which are not easy to fix. And which MAY BE fixed in the future but currently are not.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: EmperorOfTigers on November 16, 2017, 02:32 PM
If you are interested in NES/FMC functionality only, really advantageous features of NT mini would be audio cores by kevtris. And anlogue video output capability. Audio cores emulate specific sound hardware which either not implemented in Everdrive at all or implemented rough or partially. Of course that hardware not found in AVS either. Analogue video output allows to connect NT mini to CRT television and even use Light Gun/Zapper, while AVS is limited to HDMI only and light pistols are out of question.
But despite this, I'd too still recommended to stick with AVS for use with Everdrive. Since there still are issues reported concerning compatibility between NT mini and this flash cartridge which are not easy to fix. And which MAY BE fixed in the future but currently are not.
Thank you. It sounds like the AVS would be the best bet for me as the odd light gun game can be played on my real NES with my CRT. While the AVS offers better compatibility with the EverDrive and is a lot cheaper than the NT Mini. The chips on the NT Mini seem good and would be cool but they are not perfect. It seems like for my purposes I would get on better with the AVS. Thank you for your help.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: Alchemist on November 16, 2017, 05:49 PM
What makes the AV Famicom the best system for CRT?
Not my field of expertise actually, there are people who known much more. But let's make short compilation of opinions spotted here and there.

Pros:
It's relatively late of the official 8-bit Nintendo consoles so there are more chances to lay your hands on a unit with a better physical conditions.
It's relatively inexpensive compared to more complex 'combine' models produced by 3rd parties under licnese.
It's almost the same as NA toploader but without lockchip, with FDS compatibility and native to Famicoms extra audio channels support.
It's the only official Famicom with detachable and replaceable gamepads. With NA form-factored ports though.
As name suggests this model has separate audio and composite video output unlike early models of Famicom and NES with RF-modulated output only. So the best audio and video quality. PPU and CPU were slightly upgraded as well AFAIR.
Due to similarity in layout and schematics to NA toploader there is HiDef mod for this model as well.

Cons:
If you are a NES-guy you'll have to connect NES cartridges via adaptor which is not very comfortable due to NA cart size.
If you are a Famicom-guy you lose microphone support and have to connect Light Gun in NA manner via gamepad port 2.
If you are a Famicom-guy feel and look of the unit itself is not authentic.

Probably forgot something but that's most of it. Correct me if some of the statements are wrong or false.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: nuu on November 17, 2017, 12:59 AM
If you are interested in NES/FMC functionality only, really advantageous features of NT mini would be audio cores by kevtris. And anlogue video output capability. Audio cores emulate specific sound hardware which either not implemented in Everdrive at all or implemented rough or partially. Of course that hardware not found in AVS either. Analogue video output allows to connect NT mini to CRT television and even use Light Gun/Zapper, while AVS is limited to HDMI only and light pistols are out of question.
But despite this, I'd too still recommended to stick with AVS for use with Everdrive. Since there still are issues reported concerning compatibility between NT mini and this flash cartridge which are not easy to fix. And which MAY BE fixed in the future but currently are not.
Doesn't a jailbroken Analogue NT allow to load roms though? Games not working on ED N8 may work on the Analogue?

As name suggests this model has separate audio and composite video output unlike early models of Famicom and NES with RF-modulated output only. So the best audio and video quality. PPU and CPU were slightly upgraded as well AFAIR.
An AV modded Famicom is not worse in audio and video quality than an AV Famicom though. The upgrades to CPU and PPU were probably only to make them cheaper to produce. Only very early Famicom CPUs and PPUs are actually missing features that was added in later versions. And these Famicoms are much more rare.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: Alchemist on November 17, 2017, 04:49 PM
Doesn't a jailbroken Analogue NT allow to load roms though? Games not working on ED N8 may work on the Analogue?
Speaking generally -- yes of course. But EmperorOfTigers clearly stated that he intends to use requested console with flash carts and cart reproductions. While jailbroken NT Mini eliminates cartridge as an entity.  ;)

An AV modded Famicom is not worse in audio and video quality than an AV Famicom though. The upgrades to CPU and PPU were probably only to make them cheaper to produce. Only very early Famicom CPUs and PPUs are actually missing features that was added in later versions. And these Famicoms are much more rare.
Thanks for the clarification. So the sentence in 'Pros' should read as that: "It does not require additional modding to have separate audio and video output unlike the earlier models with RF-modualtor".
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: EmperorOfTigers on November 20, 2017, 03:08 PM
What makes the AV Famicom the best system for CRT?
Not my field of expertise actually, there are people who known much more. But let's make short compilation of opinions spotted here and there.

Pros:
It's relatively late of the official 8-bit Nintendo consoles so there are more chances to lay your hands on a unit with a better physical conditions.
It's relatively inexpensive compared to more complex 'combine' models produced by 3rd parties under licnese.
It's almost the same as NA toploader but without lockchip, with FDS compatibility and native to Famicoms extra audio channels support.
It's the only official Famicom with detachable and replaceable gamepads. With NA form-factored ports though.
As name suggests this model has separate audio and composite video output unlike early models of Famicom and NES with RF-modulated output only. So the best audio and video quality. PPU and CPU were slightly upgraded as well AFAIR.
Due to similarity in layout and schematics to NA toploader there is HiDef mod for this model as well.

Cons:
If you are a NES-guy you'll have to connect NES cartridges via adaptor which is not very comfortable due to NA cart size.
If you are a Famicom-guy you lose microphone support and have to connect Light Gun in NA manner via gamepad port 2.
If you are a Famicom-guy feel and look of the unit itself is not authentic.

Probably forgot something but that's most of it. Correct me if some of the statements are wrong or false.
Thank you for the list. It sounds like a great system but I am an NES guy so I would be concerned about using the adapter with such big carts.
As official hardware goes it sounds the best option though.
If you are interested in NES/FMC functionality only, really advantageous features of NT mini would be audio cores by kevtris. And anlogue video output capability. Audio cores emulate specific sound hardware which either not implemented in Everdrive at all or implemented rough or partially. Of course that hardware not found in AVS either. Analogue video output allows to connect NT mini to CRT television and even use Light Gun/Zapper, while AVS is limited to HDMI only and light pistols are out of question.
But despite this, I'd too still recommended to stick with AVS for use with Everdrive. Since there still are issues reported concerning compatibility between NT mini and this flash cartridge which are not easy to fix. And which MAY BE fixed in the future but currently are not.
Doesn't a jailbroken Analogue NT allow to load roms though? Games not working on ED N8 may work on the Analogue?

As name suggests this model has separate audio and composite video output unlike early models of Famicom and NES with RF-modulated output only. So the best audio and video quality. PPU and CPU were slightly upgraded as well AFAIR.
An AV modded Famicom is not worse in audio and video quality than an AV Famicom though. The upgrades to CPU and PPU were probably only to make them cheaper to produce. Only very early Famicom CPUs and PPUs are actually missing features that was added in later versions. And these Famicoms are much more rare.
The NT Mini can load ROMS and even ones an everdrive can't however I always prefer to use a real cartridge where I can and flash cards or repros if a real cart is impossible. Loading roms from the console itself is too close to normal software emulation for me personally.

As for a modded Famicom it makes sense that it could produce the same video quality but it sounds as though it generally still isn't as good.
Doesn't a jailbroken Analogue NT allow to load roms though? Games not working on ED N8 may work on the Analogue?
Speaking generally -- yes of course. But EmperorOfTigers clearly stated that he intends to use requested console with flash carts and cart reproductions. While jailbroken NT Mini eliminates cartridge as an entity.  ;)

An AV modded Famicom is not worse in audio and video quality than an AV Famicom though. The upgrades to CPU and PPU were probably only to make them cheaper to produce. Only very early Famicom CPUs and PPUs are actually missing features that was added in later versions. And these Famicoms are much more rare.
Thanks for the clarification. So the sentence in 'Pros' should read as that: "It does not require additional modding to have separate audio and video output unlike the earlier models with RF-modualtor".
This is very true and you're right. For me putting a cart into the system to play is important. It makes it feel more authentic to me.
Yeah not having to mod it is certainly an advantage. I and I'm sure many others can't mod a system like that.


I'm thinking the AVS would be my best bet. It is the most future proof, requires no adapters and it is a better price while covering what I want.
Thank you so much for the help everyone.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: nuu on November 22, 2017, 12:36 AM
The NT Mini can load ROMS and even ones an everdrive can't however I always prefer to use a real cartridge where I can and flash cards or repros if a real cart is impossible. Loading roms from the console itself is too close to normal software emulation for me personally.
With the small detail that there's no software emulation involved. I understand that not using a real cart feels inauthentic but not that using a flash cart or repro feels more authentic than using the internal flash cart of the Analogue NT. The only difference between using an external flash cart and the internal one is what pins on the console are used probably, and which mapper hardware emulation to use and such.

Quote
For me putting a cart into the system to play is important. It makes it feel more authentic to me.
You could stand a cart on top of it when playing it and try to fool yourself.

Quote
I'm thinking the AVS would be my best bet. It is the most future proof, requires no adapters and it is a better price while covering what I want.
Thank you so much for the help everyone.
I think the Analogue NT seems more future proof but I don't like the price tag.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: sqwirral on November 22, 2017, 04:01 AM
An AV modded Famicom is not worse in audio and video quality than an AV Famicom though. The upgrades to CPU and PPU were probably only to make them cheaper to produce. Only very early Famicom CPUs and PPUs are actually missing features that was added in later versions. And these Famicoms are much more rare.
I suppose there's ways around it but my modded original Fami shows jailbars, my AV is a nicer picture. I'd recommend AV for CRT use too. Forget those giant ugly grey carts and embrace the colourful plastic.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: Jegriva on November 22, 2017, 10:51 PM
In my experience, too, AV Famicom suffers from less intereferences with the picture.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: EmperorOfTigers on November 24, 2017, 04:16 PM
The NT Mini can load ROMS and even ones an everdrive can't however I always prefer to use a real cartridge where I can and flash cards or repros if a real cart is impossible. Loading roms from the console itself is too close to normal software emulation for me personally.
With the small detail that there's no software emulation involved. I understand that not using a real cart feels inauthentic but not that using a flash cart or repro feels more authentic than using the internal flash cart of the Analogue NT. The only difference between using an external flash cart and the internal one is what pins on the console are used probably, and which mapper hardware emulation to use and such.

Quote
For me putting a cart into the system to play is important. It makes it feel more authentic to me.
You could stand a cart on top of it when playing it and try to fool yourself.

Quote
I'm thinking the AVS would be my best bet. It is the most future proof, requires no adapters and it is a better price while covering what I want.
Thank you so much for the help everyone.
I think the Analogue NT seems more future proof but I don't like the price tag.
That makes a lot of sense. The NT Mini is clearly the ultimate solution but it is so expensive. I don't think I can justify it.
 
An AV modded Famicom is not worse in audio and video quality than an AV Famicom though. The upgrades to CPU and PPU were probably only to make them cheaper to produce. Only very early Famicom CPUs and PPUs are actually missing features that was added in later versions. And these Famicoms are much more rare.
I suppose there's ways around it but my modded original Fami shows jailbars, my AV is a nicer picture. I'd recommend AV for CRT use too. Forget those giant ugly grey carts and embrace the colourful plastic.
In my experience, too, AV Famicom suffers from less intereferences with the picture.
Yeah it sounds to me that for analog video the AV Famicom is the best. I guess the biggest issues are the lack of microphone and that it's dodgy to if it'll work on my PAL TV and how I would power it being UK based.
Which would be the best system if you wanted to RGB mod the system? Still the AV Famicom or would the original do better then?
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: Jegriva on November 25, 2017, 12:52 AM
Quote
Yeah it sounds to me that for analog video the AV Famicom is the best. I guess the biggest issues are the lack of microphone and that it's dodgy to if it'll work on my PAL TV and how I would power it being UK based.
Which would be the best system if you wanted to RGB mod the system? Still the AV Famicom or would the original do better then?
I live in Italy and I use a 2004 Samsung CRT. Pal television built after 1990, as a general rule, all support NTSC. Especially if fed them via composite cable (since the AV Famicom has the Nintendo multiAV, the cable are common, cheap, and you can buy new for a few Euros). For the power supply, I bought one for 12.50€ from retrogamesupply.com.

For the RGB, which I don’t reccomend if you plan to play on a consumer CRT, I think the AV Famicom is THE system to mod, since it already has the forementioned AV multiout found also on the Snes and the N64.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: EmperorOfTigers on November 25, 2017, 01:24 AM
Quote
Yeah it sounds to me that for analog video the AV Famicom is the best. I guess the biggest issues are the lack of microphone and that it's dodgy to if it'll work on my PAL TV and how I would power it being UK based.
Which would be the best system if you wanted to RGB mod the system? Still the AV Famicom or would the original do better then?
I live in Italy and I use a 2004 Samsung CRT. Pal television built after 1990, as a general rule, all support NTSC. Especially if fed them via composite cable (since the AV Famicom has the Nintendo multiAV, the cable are common, cheap, and you can buy new for a few Euros). For the power supply, I bought one for 12.50€ from retrogamesupply.com.

For the RGB, which I don’t reccomend if you plan to play on a consumer CRT, I think the AV Famicom is THE system to mod, since it already has the forementioned AV multiout found also on the Snes and the N64.
Awesome thank you for letting me know. I think mine does as the NTSC mode on Retron HD does work on my CRT just fine. Edit: It actually doesn't work. I get Black and White only which shows it doesn't work from what I've read.

What are the AV Famicom controllers like and do they work on Pal NES systems and the other way around?

Why would you not recommend RGB for consumer CRTs?
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: nuu on November 25, 2017, 10:06 AM
I heard that RGB mod may be incompatible with some games, I wouldn't recommend it in general.

AV Famicom controllers are dogbone shaped and no different from other NES controllers without diodes. PAL systems with diodes in the controller port can only use controllers with diodes designed for it, I don't know the details but it's only some regions of PAL NES systems that has these diodes. The AV Famicom, the NTSC NES and the PAL NES systems without the diodes can use any NES controller with or without diodes.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: EmperorOfTigers on November 26, 2017, 12:08 AM
I heard that RGB mod may be incompatible with some games, I wouldn't recommend it in general.

AV Famicom controllers are dogbone shaped and no different from other NES controllers without diodes. PAL systems with diodes in the controller port can only use controllers with diodes designed for it, I don't know the details but it's only some regions of PAL NES systems that has these diodes. The AV Famicom, the NTSC NES and the PAL NES systems without the diodes can use any NES controller with or without diodes.
Ah I didn't know that. It makes sense though as it changes the ppu.
Ah ok. What are dogbone controllers like to use?
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: lee4 on November 26, 2017, 06:51 PM
RGB (Red Green Blue) video signal
output is 1:1 pixel is only good for
*BVM (Broadcast Video Monitors) / VEM (Video Editing Monitors)
*Video Convertor Box (framemeister) / OSSC (Open Source Scan Converter)

CRT (cathode ray tube)  / (customer retail television)
Supports
*low resolution signal only
*Coaxial RF (radio frequency) 
*RCA (Composite / AV)
Not support
**CRT do not support RGB input

HDTV (High-Definition television)
supports
*HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface)
*RCA (Composite / AV) 
Not support
**some HDTV don't support 240p / low resolution signal

video output are converted from the RGB video signal
* Component
* VGA (Video Graphics Array)

**PAL games always run at 50 frames per second regardless video output
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: Jegriva on November 28, 2017, 01:04 PM
RGB (Red Green Blue) video signal
output is 1:1 pixel is only good for
*BVM (Broadcast Video Monitors) / VEM (Video Editing Monitors)
*Video Convertor Box (framemeister) / OSSC (Open Source Scan Converter)

CRT (cathode ray tube)  / (customer retail television)
Supports
*low resolution signal only
*Coaxial RF (radio frequency) 
*RCA (Composite / AV)
Not support
**CRT do not support RGB input

HDTV (High-Definition television)
supports
*HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface)
*RCA (Composite / AV) 
Not support
**some HDTV don't support 240p / low resolution signal

video output are converted from the RGB video signal
* Component
* VGA (Video Graphics Array)

**PAL games always run at 50 frames per second regardless video output

What the hell are you talking about, every television with a SCART input (so, nearly every Tv ever sold in Europe since the 80s) supports RGB.

This post is full of disinformation, please ignore it.

I don’t reccomend the RGB because it is VERY costly, and you would also fall in the rabbit’s hole of the Nes palette. To put it simple: there isn’t any “perfect” Nes RGB palette.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: rolf on November 28, 2017, 03:48 PM
RGB (Red Green Blue) video signal
output is 1:1 pixel is only good for
*BVM (Broadcast Video Monitors) / VEM (Video Editing Monitors)
*Video Convertor Box (framemeister) / OSSC (Open Source Scan Converter)

CRT (cathode ray tube)  / (customer retail television)
Supports
*low resolution signal only
*Coaxial RF (radio frequency) 
*RCA (Composite / AV)
Not support
**CRT do not support RGB input

HDTV (High-Definition television)
supports
*HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface)
*RCA (Composite / AV) 
Not support
**some HDTV don't support 240p / low resolution signal

video output are converted from the RGB video signal
* Component
* VGA (Video Graphics Array)

**PAL games always run at 50 frames per second regardless video output

What the hell are you talking about, every television with a SCART input (so, nearly every Tv ever sold in Europe since the 80s) supports RGB.

This post is full of disinformation, please ignore it.

I don’t reccomend the RGB because it is VERY costly, and you would also fall in the rabbit’s hole of the Nes palette. To put it simple: there isn’t any “perfect” Nes RGB palette.

Hi! I have an Analogue Nt Mini connected to an european CRT TV (SCART RGB). The image is awesome, and the system is near pure perfection.

This is true "there isn't any perfect NES RGB palette". But you can switch between all and decide "on the fly" on any moment. For my consumer CRT TV (B&O MX4000) I prefer the Sony CXA2025AS palette.

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kGlw5JBKFCU/WdCIOaDMU3I/AAAAAAAAALU/d310nQOvrbk-wc8RCtHKaBxUj3KTrEFCwCLcBGAs/s1600/compare-set1.png)

http://wavebeam.blogspot.com.es/2017/03/wavebeam-nes-palette.html (http://wavebeam.blogspot.com.es/2017/03/wavebeam-nes-palette.html)


The Nt Mini has a lot of option to for the HDMI domain: height, width, scaling, scanlines, antialiasing (2xSaI), etc ...


PD: I didn't test the "Everdrive N8" on it because I don't have one. Everdrive N8 brings FDS emulation and savestates that the Nt Mini don't have yet.
Title: Re: Recommended systems
Post by: nuu on December 01, 2017, 03:44 PM
Ah ok. What are dogbone controllers like to use?
They are designed to be similar to the SNES controllers so they are more ergonomic than the Famicom that has the cable coming out from the side or the NES controller that has sharp corners. Dogbone is a nickname due to their shape. If you don't like them you can always buy standard NES controllers for your AV Famicom.