Author Topic: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64  (Read 918 times)

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Offline omg

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Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« on: September 13, 2021, 02:02 PM »
Hi!

Just to know if Zelda OOt and MM (NGC promo disc version) exist in N64 Pal 50hz for Everdrive 64.
Because my N64 is PAL and I found these games only on 60hz

Thank you.

Offline Kerr Avon

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2021, 05:25 PM »
Hi!

Just to know if Zelda OOt and MM (NGC promo disc version) exist in N64 Pal 50hz for Everdrive 64.
Because my N64 is PAL and I found these games only on 60hz

Thank you.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but have you tried the NTSC versions? Most PAL TVs nowadays support NTSC, or at least PAL60 output. You don't have to set any options on your TV, the TV automatically detects the NTSC signal and switches it's output mode appropriately.


Offline omg

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2021, 07:05 PM »
I have a N64 Pal... so when I play to this NGC 60hz Game, It's not the same speed, or if I have the good speed, I have not good colours. :/

Offline nuu

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2021, 12:13 PM »
Nope, even the PAL version of the OoT and MM for Gamecube uses the NTSC-NA ROMs, and only supports PAL60 mode of the PAL Gamecube.

Playing NTSC ROMs on a PAL N64 should not affect colors on a PAL TV, but speed and sound will be off a bit.

Offline ozidual

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2021, 05:51 PM »
Try using Aroenai's patches for it:

http://krikzz.com/forum/index.php?topic=5161.0

or mine if you want changes limited to just color correction for buttons (GC to N64), etc:

https://krikzz.com/forum/index.php?topic=5281.0

I don't know if it will help - just another thing to try to see if it works.  These do not convert them to 50MHz.
Projects: Zelda OoT GCtoN64, Doshin the Giant, SSSV, Sim City 64, Getter Love, Shiren
Flash Carts: EverDrive64 2.5, EverDrive N8, SD2SNES

Offline Nemok

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2021, 04:40 PM »
As for speed, PAL consoles output either something between 49.93-49.99Hz or 60.99-61.03 Hz. For very old equipment, this is only suitable for 50Hz display, but too off-spec for 60Hz. Modern scalers will accept both, with some slight stuttering for 60Hz content that most people don't even notice, plus minor difference in sound pitch.

About colors, same idea, only for old equipment and only if you're using analog compressed video formats like composite or s-video that rely on frequency for chroma.

So... if those games really matter to you, you'll need to mod your current console for RGB or HDMI and UltraPIF (or N64Digital alone as this mod also adds crystal corrections) or get a NTSC console.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 11:11 PM by Nemok »

Offline nuu

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2021, 01:54 PM »
RGB modding won't help with the speed difference because different clocks in NTSC and PAL N64 systems, and games may cap their speed to 50Hz or 60Hz regardless which system they are played on. Colors are encoded in the N64 and depends only on region of the system, not on the game region.

Offline Nemok

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2021, 02:55 PM »
RGB doesn't help with speed, it helps with getting rid of color encoding into compressed signals.

Y/C or s-video is
Y=0,299R+0,587G+0,114B
C=fx(R+G+B)
fx vary depending PAL, SECAM, NTSC

CVBS or composite is
Y+C which equals (0,299R+0,587G+0,114B)+fx(R+G+B)

It is indeed the game that will ask for 50 or 60Hz, but it is the crystal oscillator that will determine the resulting output. Some misconceptions start with thinking that PAL is strictly defined by 50Hz 288p and NTSC by 60Hz 240p while those standards are about color encoding. PAL consoles are not accurate for NTSC standard but still can play non PAL region games, and vice versa, because their crystals differ.

That's all about accuracy and how each person deal with it.

Offline nuu

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2021, 03:34 PM »
That's not any different from what I just said. Color problems on the N64 seem to happen when you play on the wrong region for the game and the TV doesn't support PAL60 or NTSC50 which happens when a game caps 60Hz and 50Hz on a PAL and NTSC console respectively. RGB modding should help with that problem since you can use any frame rate with RGB.

I think 50Hz and 60Hz are defined in the PAL and NTSC standards though, that's why PAL60 and NTSC50 are considered non-standard, although PAL60 is commonly supported by PAL TVs along with NTSC 4.43 which is another non-standard thing.

Offline Nemok

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2021, 04:27 PM »
I agreed with almost everything you said, exception made for the idea that games may cap their speed to 50Hz or 60Hz regardless which system they are played on.

I think 50Hz and 60Hz are defined in the PAL and NTSC standards though, that's why PAL60 and NTSC50 are considered non-standard, although PAL60 is commonly supported by PAL TVs along with NTSC 4.43 which is another non-standard thing.

Not really, these are CCIR 625/50 and EIA 525/60 standards. But in practice, you're right.

Offline nuu

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2021, 01:59 PM »
You are probably right. I'm just quoting what people that knows more than me about this have previously said on the forum.

They said that only the video clock (also affects audio) is different on the different regions, and only slightly so. The numbers that I have are NTSC = 48.681812MHz, PAL = 49.65653MHz and PAL-M = 48.628316MHz. The CPU clock is 93.75MHz on all regions. The video clock difference is only 2% which seldom is noticeable in a game that was made for one region but is played on another.
But the frame rate becomes 60 or 50Hz regardless of region in games that are hardwired to make VBLANK always fire at either 60Hz or 50Hz.

Offline Nemok

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2021, 07:16 PM »
Interesting.

From my personal observations, I'd rather say that the frame refresh rate always try to become 50Hz or 60Hz compliant.

For fact, no PAL console ever outputted 60Hz when I tried to, always something around 61Hz, enough to break compatibility with some displays, alter color encoding, induce stuttering, give wrong animation speed, higher sound pitch. It can be subtle.

On a hardware level, all I know is that PAL and NTSC require different base crystals (labelled X1) and different PLL ratios from the clock generators MX8330 or MX8350 or MX9911 (labelled U7). There is a second crystal (labelled X2) that is strictly identical across all motherboards wether PAL or NTSC.

My interpretation is that some functions, like VSYNC, depend on X1, and others like RAM and CPU frequencies on X2. When a game written for 60Hz is executed on PAL hardware, it forces U7 to switch to another ratio in order to reach 60Hz. And the end result is 61Hz, which makes sense : why would it be necessary to integrate different X1s in PAL and NTSC hardware if only one version would've been sufficient to perform both 50Hz and 60Hz compliant output ?

Of course, if you prove me that some PAL consoles really can output 60Hz with high precision, that would be surprising but I'd be glad to know!

Offline nuu

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2021, 01:36 PM »
I have never programmed the N64 so I don't really know how it works in detail, and I can't prove anything. I just assumed the programmer has the power to affect the refresh rate and resolution like on many older systems. The Atari 2600 and the PC Engine both gives the programmer this kind of power (the PC Engine because its video hardware offers flexible options and the Atari because its video hardware is so rudimentary and handled mostly manually). The N64 video hardware can be reprogrammed using "microcode", which I assume gives the programmer much power of both audio and video generation. Many games uses one of Nintendo's premade programmings however, and maybe these are forcing VSYNC to always be 50 or 60Hz depending on some manually set region flag instead of basing it on what system region is detected, and that could be why so many games might be doing that.

I assumed 61Hz is because it's hard to cap it to exact NTSC standard using software, and because of the different video clock in the PAL version. I didn't think such small timing differences was such a big deal on a CRT, but modern TVs and scalers might have problems with it.

Offline Nemok

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Re: Zelda OOT and MM NGC PAL 50hz on Everdrive 64
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2021, 02:00 PM »
Right.

The difference shows more on the color burst frequency.