Author Topic: Developing N64 games..is it possible?  (Read 24170 times)

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Offline Koyuki

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Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« on: July 03, 2015, 09:58 AM »
With these tools :

http://www.emuparadise.me/sdk/

Is it possible to program and design N64 games?

As most of you know, EVERDRIVE 64 avoid of a lot of N64 limitations with size, so if gaming development is possible we could create games for the system?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 11:32 AM by Koyuki »

Offline Trevor

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2015, 12:41 PM »
Simple answere:
Yes you can use the CD to create Software.

You need to know C though and you also need to use the manual to learn the N64 Specific code like DisplayLists.

The only limitation the ED gets over is cart size... well... up to 64MB...
Nothing else is changed.

Trev

Offline saturnu

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2015, 01:02 PM »
imho programming n64 games is an insane idea.
it's far too time consuming, if you take account of creating all the "media content" and that only a hand full of retro gamers will try it out.

sure, you can program games for this systen, but ask yourself twice - is it really worth the effort?
in the end most likely there will be some shitty indy game, that most of the people would return on steam after two hours, even if it costs only about  2€.

do it for the progress itself and if you are addicted to programming and retro consoles.
if not - better make a browser or mobile game. ^^

Offline Koyuki

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2015, 03:33 PM »
actually I was planning to "rip off" content from other software, including maps and models to learn about the N64, trying the SDK.. I would end giving up in the process, anyways

BTW, I made this Goldeneye  007 replica map for a PC game Im used to, so im used to maps, models, sounds, music, textures and cheap animations , mostly that I can rip off/modify from other software

today we have a lot of tools available for that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg_h8oSCBqA

(this level I made in 2004, by the time I created all geometry and textures myself)

Is it possible to extract content from a N64 rom and use it as a base, lets say...Diddy Kong Racing, for example...then change it for Banjo Racing (using BK/BT stuff), changing model characters, adding new tracks etc, by modifying those, to make a completely new game?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 03:40 PM by Koyuki »

Offline Kerr Avon

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 04:38 PM »
I'd *love* to be able to contradict Saturnu and say that writing games for the N64 was a good idea, but sadly he's right. The N64 is notoriously difficult to program if you want to really take advantage of the N64's power, and you'll probably have  potential audience of at most a few hundred people. Then again, this is true for many consoles that have lively homebrew scenes, so if you want to write for the N64 then go ahead, I'd be eager to see what you produce.

But if you do want to write homebrew for a console, then an original XBox (the first XBox, the XBox 1 (released in 2001), even though thanks to Microsoft we can't call it that because the XBox 3 is called the XBox One, stupidly  >:( >:( >:() is a great machine for that, as it's 95% a PC, so getting programming help will be easy, plus any code you write for the XBox will be easy to transfer to the PC where you'd get tens of millions more potential users than for the XBox itself. In fact, an easy(ish) way to learn your way around programming the XBox would be to port open source PC games to the XBox

Just pick up a cheap second-hand original XBox, and if you're lucky you'll be able to find one with a mod chip and a large capacity internal hard drive (officially they all come with a 10 or 20GB drive, but when the XBox is modded, you can replace the original drive with a larger capacity drive, I think the limit now is 2TB, but mine is 500GB). Otherwise get an unmodded one and either soft mod it, or add a mod chip. You can FTP data back and forward from a PC if the XBox is modded, and a modded XBox can run everything (XBox games, emulators and roms, media files, everything) from the hard drive.



Links (covers all three XBoxes) :

http://www.xbox-scene.com/

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/

Offline Koyuki

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2015, 09:31 PM »
well, NO ONE LIVES FOREVER 2 was easy to create content for,  and the LITHTECH JUPITER tool engine was really nice, the developers provided a lot of information through documentation on how to work with it

I could use my own textures and models with it easily. But It was a way to mod the original game, thats how I learned the little stuff I know back then

I tought the more primitive the system was the more easy was to develop since N64 games works with minimal textures and very little content, and ripping off content from other games to make objects, just lowering the poly count would work like a charm...

So I had many ideas like a Donkey Kong Country game in the style of a Crash Bandicoot linear levels, but with the gameplay from the original DKC TRILOGY (why they made DK 64 instead...)

Or a Banjo-Kazooie Racing modding Diddy Kong Racing, replacing objects, textures, worlds, from DKR to those found in Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie

If at least we could have access to the game engine to develop new content!

I really dont know how hard it is to put a game from 0, I only know the part the artists does, with the tools ready to use, but learning is challenging and would be awesome create content for the N64

or Nintendo GameCube...

the original XBOX is a meh....wont feel the same have stuff for it... will miss the nostalgia factor and very little people will have interest for
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 09:43 PM by Koyuki »

Offline Kerr Avon

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2015, 11:16 PM »
That level you did for NOLF2 looks great (and NOLF2, and NOLF1, is a great game, it's a real shame we never saw a NOLF3), but as far as I know, no game on the N64 has commercially released tools available. The closest you'll get is probably the third party editor for Goldeneye and Perfect Dark, which lets you alter more or less everything in the game (textures, models, sound effect, music, level layouts, etc). It's called the GoldenEye/PD Editor, and is available from:

http://www.goldeneyevault.com/viewfile.php?id=37

To read about it or post questions, go to the Hacking & Modding forums at:

http://www.shootersforever.com/forums_message_boards/index.php?sid=b5ab2c6af8ba0479e107f036d32ea177


It's an amazing program, all the more so when you consider that the authors had to reverse engineer Goldeneye and Perfect Dark to find out more or less everything that they could put into the editor. Using this editor, Goldeneye X has been created, this brings Goldeneye into the Perfect Dark engine. At the moment, the multiplayer is more or less finished, though all you can do in single player you can only explore (there's no enemies or objectives). Still in multiplayer, you get all of the Goldeneye levels plus some new levels, you can play against bots, you have reload animations, Goldeneye music, Goldeneye skins, Goldeneye weapons, etc.

Plus there is Goldfinger 64 (a total conversion that we're hoping will be released soon), and lots of already released maps, such as (for Goldeneye) maps from Super Mario 64, Pilotwings 64, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Bomberman 64, etc.









http://www.goldeneyevault.com/viewfile.php?id=278

Offline Koyuki

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2015, 12:31 AM »
If I wanted to hack Donkey Kong 64, where should I start looking for?

I mean, by making new levels in the style of old Crash Bandicoot / DKC Trilogy, messing with polygon worlds and objects.

The GE lvl editor allows for to import 3d models, right?

If I want to change Dan level for lets say, Misfortune in Morocco chapter 1 from NOLF1, having the whole geometry, is it possible?

I dunno if the N64 could handle that, because the polygon count (even the PS2 had trouble to run the original NOLF, so its just an exemple)

Offline Traveller

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2015, 06:35 AM »
I think it'd be fun to create a new N64 game, but, doing it with one or two people is probably too hard. I'm not a programmer, but I have quite a few game design ideas.

It'd definitely be cool if one day a team of enthusiasts were able to make a brand new N64 game, sorta like how Pier Solar came about for the Mega Drive and Dreamcast.

Offline Trevor

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2015, 01:33 PM »
" tought the more primitive the system was the more easy was to develop since N64 games"

Well, that statement is actually the complete opposit. The older the system the harder to program for.
Example is that the N64 uses a certian style of Display Lists where you the programmer are in complete control of the RSP/RDP where many functions on the RSP are duplicated on the RDP and without both it wont work.

Nintendo learned from this and made the GameCube OpenGL format (apparently, I dont know myself)

Newer systems can also cope with 'leaks' better since they have more resources to waist.

I do agree that making a new game for the N64 would be cool, there have been some in the past, particulary POM98 but that is a long time ago.

"The GE lvl editor allows for to import 3d models, right?

If I want to change Dan level for lets say, Misfortune in Morocco chapter 1 from NOLF1, having the whole geometry, is it possible? "

Well... Dam, as with all GE levels, is made of rooms. About 3,000 triangles can be displayed in GE before it really stutters.
1,666 @ 60FPS (4P @ 15FPS)
3,333 @ 30FPS
6,666 @ 15FPS
So, youd need to split your new level up into rooms where no more than a total of 3,000 triangles (including props and guards) was possible to be displayed at once.
Then GE has a room limit of 192

While there is no editor for DK, you could use PerfectGold to create the display lists and inject them into DK yourself.
Actually... I think PG has support for DiddyKong Racing.
Yeah it does, and JetForce Gemini.

Banjo has its own editor, whichever name it goes under now.

Trev

Offline Koyuki

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2015, 03:40 PM »
even NOLF2 uses a low poly count, where I had to hardly decrease the field of view to make this mountain level not lag too much (around 20-30 fps in 16 people online match):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEFf-LK9oCk

Ofc I know the N64 cant handle that, but in Bunker I used low poly for the rooms because Jupiter engine dont allow for too much lighting effects if you add to much geometry...

How did RARE applied the light effects in GOLDENEYE 007? What they did was very nice for a 1997 game,
In NOLF, the light source can be applied automatically and a lot can be modified, including color and brightness, in GE is this same way?

I think its better I mess around with the GE editor a little to see how its done?

anyways, there are ways to extract models from N64 games, or even NDS games, which are all ready to be used and low poly,not to mention theyre really charming being that way...

Quote
So, youd need to split your new level up into rooms where no more than a total of 3,000 triangles (including props and guards) was possible to be displayed at once.
Then GE has a room limit of 192
 

This... the first scene in Dan (sniper tower, truck, before the tunnel) is only 192 triangles? Counting with the 3 soldiers, Bond, the truck, and objects?

Or the whole map is 3.000? Including the bungee jump scene and the underground corridor...

What may happen to my N64 if I force it to render much more triangles than it can handle in a custom rom?? Lol

I know the N64 limitations, thats what makes it so special to me, there's absolutely no fun in making something for NGC for example, because will look good by default, and wont bring nostalgia... the N64 is the system that needs efforts because it was very underused and its power was never fully extracted (yeah, Perfect Dark and Conkers and other RARE games, but all limited to cart size)...

Now with flashcart, maybe even multiple cartridge games are possible, since as mentioned above, theres a limite of 64MB rom...

About textures, in the N64 theyre so tiny and stretched to cover big polygons.... this is only because the cartridge size limitations or because the N64 can only display those tiny textures?






« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 03:47 PM by Koyuki »

Offline Kerr Avon

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2015, 04:51 PM »

Quote
So, youd need to split your new level up into rooms where no more than a total of 3,000 triangles (including props and guards) was possible to be displayed at once.
Then GE has a room limit of 192
 

This... the first scene in Dan (sniper tower, truck, before the tunnel) is only 192 triangles? Counting with the 3 soldiers, Bond, the truck, and objects?

The room limit is 192, not the triangle limit (according to Trevor, I don't know the details myself).




Quote
I know the N64 limitations, thats what makes it so special to me, there's absolutely no fun in making something for NGC for example, because will look good by default, and wont bring nostalgia

That is a good point.

Off topic, but personally I hate how deathmatch levels nowadays (well, for more than a decade...) can have so much eye candy that they can obscure the view of the enemy, and present you with paths/gaps/etc that you think you can go through but you can't. I think that Goldeneye and Perfect Dark were lucky in a way that they were made for a console that wasn't powerful enough to display multiplayer levels that contained too much detail. Instead the levels are 'clean' and functional, even though the limited detail that they do have can be very atmospheric.


Quote
... the N64 is the system that needs efforts because it was very underused and its power was never fully extracted (yeah, Perfect Dark and Conkers and other RARE games, but all limited to cart size)...

Now with flashcart, maybe even multiple cartridge games are possible, since as mentioned above, theres a limite of 64MB rom...

Yes, if you're the programmer of a game, then you can no doubt load and save code directly to the SD card, so theoretically, an N64 game can be as big as the SD card that the flash cartridge is using. The only downside is that you'll have to know the load and save programming code for each N64 flash cartridge, but there are only a few so it wouldn't take long to learn the code.

Offline Koyuki

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2015, 05:57 PM »
Personally, N64 is my favourite console of all time, followed by Sega Saturn (recently bought one) and last PS1 (which I can play via retrocompatibility on PS3).

The magic that is present on N64 and SS because of the natural limitations of these machines was there because of that environment of hard development, when one dedicated developer could suceed by releasing fantastic games like Sin and Punishment and Radiant Silvergun (both from Treasure) or fail miserably by releasing mediocre games (Carmageddon 64).

I tend to like underdogs (That's why I prefer No One Lives Forever all the way over Half Life, even if HL was a huge successful series and NOLF games are in the limbo probably because they were too classy for the average gamer, and that's how I see the N64 and SS, two awesome systems that could not match the popularity of the PS1...

But, when I look to PS1 I see this:

- 3 Syphon Filter games that plays and looks exactly the same
- 3 Spyro The Dragon games that...."......"........."........."......."
- 5 Tomb Raider games that ....."........."..........".........."........."
- 4 Wipeout games that..........."..........".........."..........".........."
- 3 Crash Bandicoot games that..........".........."...........".........."
- 3 Colony Wars games that................".........."...........".........."
- 5 Need For Speed games that..........."...........".........."............"

Ridge Racer, Hot Shots Golf, Gran Turismo....sequels and more sequels...

Nintendo could have done the same for Wave Race/Pilotwings/1080º/Super Mario 64/Star Fox/ but they chose not to..

Mario Kart 64 was a huge hit (more than 9 million copies sold), why Nintendo didn't developed a sequel in the N64?

These looks absolutely superb in my opinion:








Anything people create for the PS1/GC/Wii will be forgotten easily or will not be recognized, but for N64, those who love the system will at least try it out...

Just imagine a Donkey Kong Racing (cancelled GAMECUBE title) released for the N64 these days using the models above!!! Never will happen, but if someone does for another system, lets say, XBOX....wont have the same taste or feeling....It will feel like a cheap hack, not what could have been done.....








Offline Sephiroth81

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2015, 06:09 PM »
I love your passion and enthusiasm for the N64 and Saturn, but I think you're being rather unkind towards the Playstation. Sure there are lots of sequels on that system, but that was because it was a success and 3rd party developers saw an opportunity to make money, even if the sequels were less than original or inspiring.

Mario Kart 64 may not have got a sequel, neither did Mario 64 (on the same system), but Zelda did, and there were 3 Mario Party games, lots of Turok games, the usual sports sequels, Extreme G sequels, Bomberman series, Cruise N USA series, San Francisco Rush games etc etc.

The platform (PS1) had over 100m users, so of course some companies would have exploited it...just as the same would have happened had the Saturn been successful (Tomb Raider would have surely continued on the Saturn), and the same applies to the N64.

Arguably the best game on the PS1 is Metal Gear Solid....Konami didn't release another MGS sequel till the PS2 era.

I enjoy all 3, and understand the "Underdog" mentality, but I think you shouldn't write off the PS1, which is an excellent machine, and it was also not some sort of "powerhouse" yet developers managed to pull off some amazing things with it - just look at Quake 2 running....on 2MB ram!

Offline Koyuki

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Re: Developing N64 games..is it possible?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2015, 06:36 PM »
Well, the PS1 was great, with many classics and quality titles, and I like its hiddem gems a lot, but it had its fully potential explored, while the Saturn died too soon (check Sonic World in Sonic Jam to see what the system was capable of) and the N64 was unexplored (RARE games gives only a taste of the system capabilities, which is very sad)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ThbbN3o5yw

The idea of a Donkey Kong Racing with the Kongs riding the animal buddies is so nostalgic! Kiddy Kong riding Ellie in the end of the trailer was pure awesomeness!!!
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 06:51 PM by Koyuki »